Ocii,
"The cause of the crisis was Congo loot". Well, well, we've now gone full
circle. At last you have made a statement, although derived from what I wrote
and wrongly interpreted. Otherwise, all you are continuing to do is quote
lengthy passages from my piece and ask irrelevant questions.
I seriously doubt whether you actually know what the crisis was about. My
interpretation is that the 1966 crisis was a constitutional one - with the
Prime Minister usurping powers that were not his -and not a corruption one as
you are purporting. That is why I said that the Congo issue just provided the
background to the events leading to the crisis (as well as shedding some light
on the character of the man). But now you are telling me that it was the cause
of the crisis and, as usual, providing no information on how it caused it. If
you had read my "write-up" carefully, you would have found therein most of the
reasons for the crisis. But I guess that is too much to ask of you.
Even if the Congo gold had not been looted, I'm sure there would still be a
crisis due to Obote's obsession with power. I maintain that the crisis was
caused by his behaviour (I've already provided you with a list of his
unconstitutional actions as proof of this) and not by the looting of gold -
that was just a catalyst in the background. You can call that my opinion or
whatever you want, but isn't what you are writing here your opinion ? The only
difference is that yours is without any facts to support it.
I am at a loss as to what power the Kabaka wanted. He had ultimate power as the
Kabaka of Buganda and he had constitutional powers as the President of Uganda.
It was these powers that Obote wanted for himself and that was the cause of the
crisis, not the gold he looted from Congo with his buddies.
Its no good asking over and over again for proof about Obote's corruption when,
as I pointed out to you earlier, he himself made sure that the results of the
Commission of Enquiry never come out. If he had let the Commission do it's
work, you would not be asking. Maybe you should inquire from some of your UPC
colleagues for that information. Apart from his denials, there is no proof that
Obote wasn't involved.
"Obote joined hands with Kabaka to form that government" because that is the
only way he could attain power. Simple as that. If KY had come to an agreement
with DP, he would have had no chance. Maybe what I also didn't make clear was
that, support for Obote in his own party was disappearing fast and he was about
to face a vote of no confidence which he would certainly lose. Any civilized
political leader who faces a vote of no confidence and loses it, resigns. But
not Obote. He viewed a vote of no confidence against him by his colleagues as
treason and hence, he preempted it by his unconstitutional behaviour. It was
also due to his waning support that UPC's elections for the party president
were already 1 year overdue at the time of the crisis. He knew he wouldn't win
them. The party itself was divided into two opposing factions. By the way,
Obote knew perfectly well that a vote of no confidence was going to be
introduced against him, hence his hiding in the North pretending he wasn't
aware of it. So, don't fool readers that it was planned for when he "was not
even in parliament".
Lastly, Obote could not use the army from day one as you claim, simply because
he couldn't be sure of their support at the time. I have already pointed you to
the fact that he used foreign troops to suppress the same army in 1964. This
was not an army he could fully trust and which he was in a position to use
against the Kabaka right from day one. He had to first fill it with his
cronies, which he gradually did.
Finally, I wish you could just stop justifying Obote's appalling behaviour with
statements like: "he had reasons for doing that". This is similar to saying
that Hitler killed 10 million people but, oh he must have had his reasons !!!
Baloney !!! The only reason behind Obote's actions was his lust for absolute
power. Period.
Kasangwawo.
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:28:53 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: [Ugnet] Fwd:
Obote was right to attack Lubiri (Abbey Semuwemba)To: [email protected]
Kasangwawo,
You simply don't have the mental capapcity to see through Mengo's puerile lust
for power that forced them to indulge in subversive activities then, causing
insecurity in Buganda, against Dr. Obote's government. You offered the loot of
Congo as the cause of the crisis, but attempted to deny it yesterday. Yet in
your write-up of a couple of days ago that you refered readers to, there was
nothing else you pointed out that contributed to the crisis but the looting of
Congo gold and corruption(of which a proposed amendment for it was shot down)!!
When I challenged you on that, and requested you provide proof that Dr. Obote
and his cahoots were indeed corrupt, you had nothing to offer. Instead you are
trying to hide behind Dr. Obote's lust for power! Kasangwawo that is your
opinion; and that of the KY sympathizers!! Mere opinion is not fact.
Remove the claim that Amin looted Congo gold and let say it never happened!
What any other things or actions do you think would have contributed to the
1966 crisis? If you have forgotten what you wrote, let me reproduce it for you
again:
"
The Uganda government had supported the Congolese Simba rebels led by Gbenye
(an army whose fighters dressed in monkey skins and cannibalized their
opponents) during the armed conflict between Tshombe and Gbenye in the early
60s. At the end of the operations, some Ugandan MPs started raising questions
as to who authorized the Uganda forces beyond guarding the Uganda border. There
were also allegations that gold and ivory was brought back and shared among
certain individuals. The issue was first publicly discussed in Parliament when
a government backbencher tabled a motion on 12th March 1965 concerning the
security situation in Buganda, the main objective of which was to ban Kabaka
Yekka (KY) by branding it a party of criminals. During the debate, a DP member,
Gaspari Oda, sought to amend the motion by adding corruption in the civil
service and armed forces, which he said was a factor in the insecurity not only
in Buganda but throughout the country. The amendment was finally defeated but
not before Daudi Ochieng (KY) and Alexander Latim (DP) had introduced a lot of
information in support of the amendment. Ochieng confirmed that the insecurity
was not confined to Buganda but was spread throughout the country; that the
soldiers patrolling near the Congo border in West Nile were becoming lawless;
that morale in the armed forces was low due to the soldiers' belief that a few
senior officers were making personal financial gain out of the border incidents.
Ochieng also informed Parliament that Amin, who was then Deputy Commander of
the Uganda Army, had visited West Nile several times and had been seen bringing
back parcels to his home in Entebbe which he guarded with utmost security."
Kasangwawo is that just about the complete cause of the crisis or no?
If your answer is no, like you claimed yesterday that the looting of Congo was
not the cause of the crisis, then what is the cause of the crisis? Corruption?
If it was corruption within civil and military establishments then as you wrote
in your piece, then can you provide us with proof of corruption conducted by
Dr. Obote's bigshots at that time? Forget Congo loot, for that to you was not
the cause of the crisis! Forget also your claim that Dr. Obote was power
hungry!! For, that is merely you opinion!!
To claim that Dr. Obote ursurped all powers, in attempting to prove your claim
does not and cannot cut it! If Dr. Obote wanted power, like I pointed out
earlier, he would not have entered into agreement with the Kabaka and his KY to
form the government! He could have used the same army right from day one, to
take full control of the country. So, do not give us that baseless claim that
Dr. Oboted ursurped all powers because he was power hungry!! Mere opinion!!
Period.
You people cannot provide any other facts that contributed to the crisis but
would rather force it down the throat of Ugandans to accept your rather twisted
claim that Dr. Obote was power hungry!! If Dr. Obote was power hungry then why
on earth did he join hand with Kabaka to form that government? Who was he
trying to please?
It appears it was Kabaka and his KY who wanted power, and were employing all
mischiefs to take over. And that was even the reason there were insecurity in
particularly Buganda region. Your attempt to explain away a government
back-bencher's motion over the insecurity in Buganda merely confirm that you
people wanted nothing but to assume power in the country regardless.
Ochieng claimed that there were insecurity throughout the country, and the only
example he gives is, insecurity along Congo-Uganda border in West Nile district
- knowing fully that there was war in Congo? Kasangwawo were there as well
insecurity along Kenya-Uganda border in Mbale, Tororo, or even Karamoja? Or,
were there insecurity in Nakasongola? Better yet, lets take it one step ahead.
Were there insecurity as well in Kamuli or Namasagali?
Look, Kasangwawo, being a fool is not merely by claim that so and so is. Being
a fool can be determine by what one spew. You cannot even proove that Dr. Obote
was power hungry but would want readers to take your claim as nothing but the
truth!
You have attempted to run away from your own writing, clearly indicating that
the Congo gold saga was at the centre of the 1966 crisis! Your words: "That
said, you don't seem to have read beyond the second page of my article,
otherwise you would have noticed that the saga concerning the Congo gold was
given as background information to the events leading up to the 1966 crisis
(your earlier attempt to just quote excerpts concerning the gold issue
notwithstanding). In other words, the Congo issue sets the scene of what was to
happen. But I guess this is too difficult for you to comprehend, hence you
understood it as the cause of the crisis."
If the Congo loot set the scene for what was to happened: Dr. Obote ursurping
all powers from a SITTING PRESIDENT and COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, then can we
definitively say the Congo loot was the cause of the crisis?? Kasangwawo
sometime I wonder.
What finally happened that you described as:
"- Obote illegally usurped all powers vested in the President of Uganda and
abolished the offices of the President and Vice-President. - Obote illegally
suspended and later abrogated the Constitution of Uganda which had been
negotiated and agreed upon by all Ugandans. - Obote surrounded the House of
Parliament with soldiers and forced the pigeonhole constitution down the
throats of Ugandans without the MPs ever getting the chance to read it, let
aside debate it. - Obote consequently violated the federal arrangement, the
basis on which Uganda had gained independence. - Obote illegally arrested and
detained five ministers. - Obote authorized the movement of troops in his
preparation to overthrow the constitution, thereby threatening the safety of
the country. - Obote even personally harassed Kabaka Mutesa by sealing up State
House and not allowing the President to remove his personal effects."
were not the cause of the crisis!! These were actions in the crisis - in other
words, the crisis was already on!! The above actions were only ways and means
to settle it!! Fool!!
The cause of the crisis was Congo loot, that led to Grace Ibingira calling for
vote of non-confidence of the Prime Minister as the leader of government, when
in fact Dr. Obote, as the Prime Minister, was not even in parliament!!
If as you would like readers to believe, Kabaka was indeed the President and
Commander-in-Chief, then why on earth would Ibingira proposed that instead a
vote of Non-confidence be conducted against Dr. Obote? Could it be because Dr.
Obote had already carried out all the actions you described, quoted above, that
to you were the cause of the crisis?? Which one came first kasangwawo? Was it
Ibingira's call for vote of non-confidence or "- Obote illegally usurped all
powers vested in the President of Uganda and abolished the offices of the
President and Vice-President. - Obote illegally suspended and later abrogated
the Constitution of Uganda which had been negotiated and agreed upon by all
Ugandans.".................??
Do you see a fool in the mirror now?
Ocii
jonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ocii, it is quite tedious to try and discuss something with an ignorant person
who doesn't even acknowledge that fact and simply refuses to learn. You asked
me the reasons for the crisis and I reiterated them for you, but you are saying
you don't see them and yet you give no reason yourself. Are you able to read
what others write up to the end ? In any case, why don't you tell the readers
what YOU think the causes were ? The fact is, underlying all his erratic
behaviour was Obote's pathological lust for power. And don't be fooled that he
could have been in position to form a government without KY. The fact that he
was ready to enter this marriage of convenience by pretending that he supported
KY's cause is just confirmation that he wanted power by any means possible.
Without his insatiable lust for power, the 1966 crisis would not have taken
place. Period ! I fail to understand your logic (if there is any at all).
After usurping all powers, Obote was "a whole Commander-in-Chief" TWICE and he
was deposed by his own army TWICE ! Should Ugandans then look at Obote as
"merely a sitting duck kind of Commander-in-Chief", completely "useless for
Uganda" ? Should they ?I am not taking you for a fool - you are actually one.
Kasangwawo.
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:39:33 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: [Ugnet] Fwd:
Obote was right to attack Lubiri (Abbey Semuwemba)To: [email protected]
Heheheheeee,
Kasangwawo, you just are making me laugh. Back up, back up for a second. You
are way ahead in your hurry to indict Dr. Obote over the 1966 crisis!!
Before Dr. Obote woke up that very morning to ursap all powers from a sitting
President and Commander-in-Chief, what had happened to cause Dr. Obote to do
so? There must have been reasons to do so; not just thirst for power like you
would want us to believe. If Dr. Obote wanted power by any means, he would not
have even agreed to form the government with KY and the Kabaka!
You have just denyed that Congo's gold loot was not the cause of the crisis.
Okay, if that is what you want readers to believe. But please tell us the cause
of the crisis.
What was the cause of the crisis Kasangwawo? Dr. Obote could not have woken up
that faithful morning in 1966 to ursap all powers from moreover, a whole
Commander-in-Chief!!
If Dr. Obote could do so, without any reasons - other than thirst for power,
when Kabaka Mutesa was a whole Commander-in-Chief, then seriously should
Ugandans even be concern about what happened - I mean the storming of Lubiri??
Shouldn't Ugandans only look at Mutesa as was merely a sitting duck kind of
Commander-in-Chief, simply was useless for Uganda anyway??
Come on now!
Kasangwawo stop taking us for fools. What was the cause of the 1966 crisis?
Ocii jonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ocii, why do you like twisting other people's words ? Where exactly did I claim
that corruption was at the centre of the 1966 crisis ? I only described it in
more detail because you inquired about it. Otherwise, most of your last posting
was quite irrelevant. That said, you don't seem to have read beyond the second
page of my article, otherwise you would have noticed that the saga concerning
the Congo gold was given as background information to the events leading up to
the 1966 crisis (your earlier attempt to just quote excerpts concerning the
gold issue notwithstanding). In other words, the Congo issue sets the scene of
what was to happen. But I guess this is too difficult for you to comprehend,
hence you understood it as the cause of the crisis. Still, the Congo issue says
a lot about the character of the man you call your hero and his buddies. If you
had read further, you would have seen some of the reasons that caused the
crisis: - Obote illegally usurped all powers vested in the President of Uganda
and abolished the offices of the President and Vice-President. - Obote
illegally suspended and later abrogated the Constitution of Uganda which had
been negotiated and agreed upon by all Ugandans. - Obote surrounded the House
of Parliament with soldiers and forced the pigeonhole constitution down the
throats of Ugandans without the MPs ever getting the chance to read it, let
aside debate it. - Obote consequently violated the federal arrangement, the
basis on which Uganda had gained independence. - Obote illegally arrested and
detained five ministers. - Obote authorized the movement of troops in his
preparation to overthrow the constitution, thereby threatening the safety of
the country. - Obote even personally harassed Kabaka Mutesa by sealing up State
House and not allowing the President to remove his personal effects. Are these,
to you, the acts of a democrat ? How can you, after all this, claim that Kabaka
Mutesa had no case ? You want reality ? You can't handle reality. Kasangwawo.
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:44:19 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: [Ugnet] Fwd:
Obote was right to attack Lubiri (Abbey Semuwemba)To: [email protected]
Kasangwawo,
I seriously shudder for you. In fact you are the one who should get real and
wake up your ignorant backside, so you know realism from mere dreams!!
Let me ask you this: How long has America been waging war in Irag? And how much
Iraqi oil have the coalition forces looted from the country since then? And has
there been any ultimatum issued by the oppositions, or even the monarchy(where
it applies) forces in each of the coalition forces' country, for these sitting
government decimating Iraq to butt out of their capitals?
Lets forget Iraq. Lets see what happened in the great lakes. Since Uganda,
Rwanda and Burundi invaded DRC and were in the country for years, how much
wealth do you think these governments have looted from the DRC? And has there
been any oppositions, let say even the monarchy, that has so far issued
ultimatum to these governments to butt out of Kampala, Kigali, or Bujumbura
because of the loots?
Why was the loot of the DRC so important to Kabaka Mutesa and his KY then, but
not any more important to Mengo today, when NRA/M looted the country as well?
And why was it ONLY Daudi Ochieng who was attacking Dr. Obote's government on
the question of this loot but not any true persons of Mengo(Don't forget Daudi
Ochieng was from the North)?
In my last rejoinder to you I asked you to let readers know how much Dr. Obote
and his entourage looted from Uganda public coffer. So far you have been unable
to avail readers with any loot of Uganda public funds made by Dr. Obote and his
cahorts. Instead you are dangling the loot of DRC! How should that be of
serious concerns to Ugandans of Mengo then, but no longer of any concerns to
mengo today?
Kasangwawo I think you are being too shallow. My attempts to fire you with
questions is to engage your mental capacity to come to the reality, looking
retrospectively on what you wrote. Unfortunately you are demonstrating that you
are incapable.
There is no more need for research on this issue. Everything is just about
known. Kabaka Mutesa therefore had no case against Dr. Obote 1 government.
That is as much as I can tell you. I am not one of the revisionists you tried
to allude to. I simply don't see a case by Kabaka Mutesa then.
Ociijonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ocii, I know what you said and it was absolutely nothing. You still haven't
told me a single thing that's untrue in what I wrote. All I get are further
questions from you, in essence asking me to do the research for you. I wish you
could get off your lazy backside and try to find out for yourself the things
you don't know, instead of first arguing and then requesting to be enlightened.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to repeat all the reasons for
Kabaka Mutesa's case against Obote, because they are clearly spelt out in what
I wrote. Corruption - this is not just a claim, there is concrete evidence of
thousands of pounds deposited on one of the looters' bank account (the group
involved in sharing the gold were disclosed as: Milton Obote, Onama, Nekyon and
Idi Amin). Obote was pressurized into putting up a Commission of Enquiry but
made sure that it's activities were limited. Restrictions were put on the type
of evidence the Commission could accept, e.g. "evidence adversely affecting the
reputation of any person, or tending to reflect in any way upon the character
or conduct of any person" was inadmissible. One of the people to whom the
Commission's activities would extend was Obote himself, who had recently
usurped all executive powers of the President and suspended the Constitution as
well as detaining five of his own ministers. The Commission itself was
appointed by and would report to one of his ministers. Surely it is not rocket
science for you to understand that, in these circumstances, the Commission was
rendered impotent and unable to carry out its activities properly. Still, the
Commission, even with these restrictions, was preparing a report which was
supposed to be ready by July 1964. Well, it was never published. Contrary to
what you believe, the President (Kabaka Mutesa at the time), was the Supreme
Head and Commander-in-Chief of Uganda. In other words, he was the
Constitutional Head of State in whom the executive authority of Uganda vested
and the Prime Minister had to keep the President informed of all matters
concerning te conduct of Government. He was therefore not just ceremonial as
you claim. It was Obote who sent Ugandan troops to Congo, only he 'forgot' to
inform the President. The issue was also never debated by Parliament prior to
sending them, thereby setting a bad precedent which would be repeated decades
later by the current President. So it was a unilateral decision by the Prime
Minister and an illegal one. Kasangwawo.
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:14:06 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: [Ugnet] Fwd:
Obote was right to attack Lubiri (Abbey Semuwemba)To: [email protected]
Kasangwawo,
When I say Kabaka Mutesa had no case against Dr. Obote 1 government, I am not
just trying twist issues; I mean exactly what I said.
Since claim of corruption is in the centre of the 1966 crisis, can you tell us,
or bring to readers' attention how much public funds Dr. Obote and his
entourage then, looted from Uganda taxpayers?
And since to you, President Mutesa was the Commander-in-Chief (sorry for the
mixed-up in my initial response), how was it that Ugandan troops ended up in
Congo?
Ociijonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ocii, I still don't see where you refute my statements with facts. You have
highlighted huge chunks of what I wrote but did not disprove any of it. Can you
please tell me just a single thing that is not true in my article. Give me the
facts ! All you keep on repeating is that you don't see any fault by Obote in
overthrowing the constitution (of course you wouldn't, much as you are in love
with your hero), and that Ochieng was KY. So what, if he was KY ? Is it
because Obote wanted a one-party state that you think anything a member of
another party did was wrong ?"Obote as the first president of Uganda" ! Are you
kidding me ? Do you honestly not know that Obote was not the first president of
Uganda ? I might be wasting my time here. Kasangwawo.
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