Some of what you mentioned are relevant to the general topic in a very broad sense, but not relevant to the focus of the conversation we're having here; e.g. saving space in package design, replacing bullet separators, etc. Although not relevant to the conversation, still as an i18n practitioner, I'd like to see them in a document with some figures and some references. See this[1] as an exquisite example.
> These uses are on fact very old, before standardisation of language codes > and they have notre disappeared and will likely not in any expected short > time frame. Is there an example of a multilingual document pre-dating ISO/TC 37 and ISO/R 639 which uses flags to distinguish text in different languages? Most people cannot identify standard language codes correctly but recognize > the flag commonly used to designate their language. [...] Even if country flags are not culturally neutral for those languages they > are very often sufficient for the few listed languages. I agree with what you're saying about language codes being sometimes obscure to common user. I also agree with what you said yesterday in the other thread about flags not being good to visually represent languages: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Philippe Verdy <[email protected]> wrote: > But my opinion is that "flags" (even ifshowing them generically) are not > the cood concept for languages All said and done, it seems to me there are always better ways to represent languages in software UIs. A very large scale and illustrative example is Wikimedia Foundation's Universal Language Selector[2]. It is used on most WMF projects to switch between hundreds of languages and it doesn't use neither flags nor language codes in its UI. See the design notes[3]. [1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ [2]: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Universal_Language_Selector [3]: https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Universal_Language_Selector/Interaction_Design_Framework#Iconography_to_represent_languages ↪ Shervin On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Philippe Verdy <[email protected]> wrote: > There are many examples and notably on home pages of a lot of commercial > sites un their top bar and in startup selectors of many mobile apps or in > popular games or on various including translation tools or catalogues of > dictionnaires ans manu printed dictionbaries show these flags on their > cover, including wellknown ones from famous brands such as Harraps or > Larousse. > Or on official sites of various tourism information offices and museums on > their printed leaflets or on museums. They do not support all languages > with accurate translations but are giving a visual choice or indicator of > the language this way. > Many physical products use these flags on their printed labels or boxes > and embedded leaflets for listing used components or describe their use. As > this saves space on the limited size of the label or box. > Most people cannot identify standard language codes correctly but > recognize the flag commonly used to designate their language. > These icons also replace bullet separators for their visual impact, they > are true symbols acting like ponctuation, but more visible si they allow > saving newlines as well. > Even if country flags are not culturally neutral for those languages they > are very often sufficient for the few listed languages. > And with the same frequency we see packagings showing country codes > instead of language codes. > When they realize that country flags are too much culturally/politically > oriented they do not want tout show them will juste use region codes, more > less decorated (not always standard ISO codes but like on car plates). > These uses are on fact very old, before standardisation of language codes > and they have notre disappeared and will likely not in any expected short > time frame. Now with the internet available around the world, massively > advertized and used daily in multiple times or activities, people know > their country code but still not their langage code... > Le 13 févr. 2015 18:42, "Shervin Afshar" <[email protected]> a > écrit : > > I'm neither proposing nor implying what should or should not be done or >> whether Unicode can or can not interfere with anything anywhere. I'm just >> curious about use of flags in language selectors or as visual language >> identifier on websites which you wrote about. >> >> I know of some organizations that strictly avoid using flags altogether >> to represent languages. Did you encounter that during your research? >> >> Also, do you have your research on this matter documented somewhere else >> so I can refer my colleagues in i18n to it? >> >> >> ↪ Shervin >> >> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Philippe Verdy <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> This is just experience of visiting sites commonly using these flags to >>> represent (inappropriately) languages *visually*. And even if it is not the >>> best way to represent languages, this is what happens (Unicode cannot >>> interfer with the freedom of speech and the choice of authors if they >>> prefer visual icons to plain words). >>> >>> >>> 2015-02-13 16:37 GMT+01:00 Shervin Afshar <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 13, 2015 3:12 AM, "Philippe Verdy" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> > This is completely a non-issue with the Unicode standard itself. >>>> There's an ample enough space to use various designs that match character >>>> properties as well as user expectations *without* breaking the character >>>> identity itself. So even if the US flag is often used for English, in >>>> Britanic sites they will use the British flag. In the Republic of Ireland >>>> they'll won't use the Irish flag for the English language (prefered for the >>>> Irish language itself) and will unlikely use the British flag. In South >>>> Africa or India to, they won't use their national flag for English >>>> (multiple official languages there, and English is not even the preferred >>>> language). >>>> >>>> Are these statements about use of flags for language selectors on >>>> websites, based on some UX study, survey, or commonly accepted guideline, >>>> or are they just speculations? >>>> >>> >>> >>
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