2015-02-13 20:37 GMT+01:00 Shervin Afshar <[email protected]>: > Some of what you mentioned are relevant to the general topic in a very > broad sense, but not relevant to the focus of the conversation we're having > here; e.g. saving space in package design, replacing bullet separators, > etc. Although not relevant to the conversation, still as an i18n > practitioner, I'd like to see them in a document with some figures and some > references. See this[1] as an exquisite example. > > >> These uses are on fact very old, before standardisation of language codes >> and they have notre disappeared and will likely not in any expected short >> time frame. > > > Is there an example of a multilingual document pre-dating ISO/TC 37 and > ISO/R 639 which uses flags to distinguish text in different languages? > >> My sentence was more generic than that. It was about the old practice of using things identifies countries/regions where the real meaning was to represent languages (independantly of regions where it is supposed to be "mostly" spoken (false for languages that are much more spoken in other places than their native region. So various things associated to places (rather than languages) have been used and continue to be used: * more or less abbreviated coutnry/region names (often altered locally or using imaginative/poetic descriptions at best, or frequently as well using insulting slang words for these regions names) * the standard name of these regions (even if the language is no longer spoken there: it has the side effect that those that speak the language today are considered as "strangers" within their current country. * the new name of the region once it has become an region occupied by another ruler (the old name used when that region was still self-governing is prohibited. * iconic representations of various objects typical of this region (e.g. using an icon of the Eiffel Tower to designate Paris, or France, or an iconic representation of the Colyseum to erpresent Rome Italy, or the Tower of Pise as well, or a Pyramid to represent Egypt) as a way to designate the language that is mostly spoken there or originates from there; wellknown monuments in this region are the most used * But you'll see also (notably in sports) a frog or a peacok to represent France, an other natural elements symbolizing historical events in nations of UK. Frequently these elements may be also part of today's flags (e.g. the mapple leaf for Canada, the hermine for Britanny) * Flags **of course** for these regions (but there are disagreements about the choice of Flag, as well as to the graographical border of the region where that language is spoken or originates) * Coats of arms * National colors in some arrangements (far from the effective form of the flag even if it includes these colors). * Iconic representation of the region borders (often only the borders remaining in today's countries) * Religious and esotheric symbols * Other non inconic symbols of these regions (flags are not the only official symbols of today's countries) : it could be some notes of an anthem, or a a famous song or music from a musician of that region (which European country do you think the three apples may mean in Romance countries ? you have to think about it phonetically, and then to which European language will you associate these three apples ?) * Photos of portraits, or scultpures of famous persons from that region, notably the most famous artists (e.g. look into per-language categories of the "Languages" category on several editions of Wiktionnary),frequentlty these are poets, writers, dramaturges. * Common sentences attributing object to the country or region (a standard used in East Asian regions, and replacing country names without using any phonologic similarity). Those sentences are also depicted iconically on their flags (e.g. Japan). ...
In all those cases, there's a common confusion between designating regions and languages (and politically it seems that most countries want to define their concept of nation and associated territory to a language and want that language to be named according to the way theur also name the region. So most frequenty, the "gentilés" derived friom the region name to designate people of that region are used as adjectives qualifying every subject used by people of this region or from hat region (and these include theur language) Human history, since many centuries, has a huge record of dramatic events caused by this confusion of cultures/languages/peoples with regions by their current winning rulers as well as by their occupants and occupied countruesx. This is stil lthe case today and new events are coming almost every day to recall it. This contaminates the basic concept of "nation" and even th way we write and pronounce languages.
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