I see. It all make sense to me now. For some reason, I was of the impression that we are talking about flags and language codes here.
↪ Shervin On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Philippe Verdy <[email protected]> wrote: > > > 2015-02-13 20:37 GMT+01:00 Shervin Afshar <[email protected]>: > >> Some of what you mentioned are relevant to the general topic in a very >> broad sense, but not relevant to the focus of the conversation we're having >> here; e.g. saving space in package design, replacing bullet separators, >> etc. Although not relevant to the conversation, still as an i18n >> practitioner, I'd like to see them in a document with some figures and some >> references. See this[1] as an exquisite example. >> >> >>> These uses are on fact very old, before standardisation of language >>> codes and they have notre disappeared and will likely not in any expected >>> short time frame. >> >> >> Is there an example of a multilingual document pre-dating ISO/TC 37 and >> ISO/R 639 which uses flags to distinguish text in different languages? >> >>> > My sentence was more generic than that. It was about the old practice of > using things identifies countries/regions where the real meaning was to > represent languages (independantly of regions where it is supposed to be > "mostly" spoken (false for languages that are much more spoken in other > places than their native region. > So various things associated to places (rather than languages) have been > used and continue to be used: > * more or less abbreviated coutnry/region names (often altered locally or > using imaginative/poetic descriptions at best, or frequently as well using > insulting slang words for these regions names) > * the standard name of these regions (even if the language is no longer > spoken there: it has the side effect that those that speak the language > today are considered as "strangers" within their current country. > * the new name of the region once it has become an region occupied by > another ruler (the old name used when that region was still self-governing > is prohibited. > * iconic representations of various objects typical of this region (e.g. > using an icon of the Eiffel Tower to designate Paris, or France, or an > iconic representation of the Colyseum to erpresent Rome Italy, or the Tower > of Pise as well, or a Pyramid to represent Egypt) as a way to designate the > language that is mostly spoken there or originates from there; wellknown > monuments in this region are the most used > * But you'll see also (notably in sports) a frog or a peacok to represent > France, an other natural elements symbolizing historical events in nations > of UK. Frequently these elements may be also part of today's flags (e.g. > the mapple leaf for Canada, the hermine for Britanny) > * Flags **of course** for these regions (but there are disagreements about > the choice of Flag, as well as to the graographical border of the region > where that language is spoken or originates) > * Coats of arms > * National colors in some arrangements (far from the effective form of the > flag even if it includes these colors). > * Iconic representation of the region borders (often only the borders > remaining in today's countries) > * Religious and esotheric symbols > * Other non inconic symbols of these regions (flags are not the only > official symbols of today's countries) : it could be some notes of an > anthem, or a a famous song or music from a musician of that region (which > European country do you think the three apples may mean in Romance > countries ? you have to think about it phonetically, and then to which > European language will you associate these three apples ?) > * Photos of portraits, or scultpures of famous persons from that region, > notably the most famous artists (e.g. look into per-language categories of > the "Languages" category on several editions of Wiktionnary),frequentlty > these are poets, writers, dramaturges. > * Common sentences attributing object to the country or region (a standard > used in East Asian regions, and replacing country names without using any > phonologic similarity). Those sentences are also depicted iconically on > their flags (e.g. Japan). > ... > > In all those cases, there's a common confusion between designating regions > and languages (and politically it seems that most countries want to define > their concept of nation and associated territory to a language and want > that language to be named according to the way theur also name the region. > So most frequenty, the "gentilés" derived friom the region name to > designate people of that region are used as adjectives qualifying every > subject used by people of this region or from hat region (and these include > theur language) > > Human history, since many centuries, has a huge record of dramatic events > caused by this confusion of cultures/languages/peoples with regions by > their current winning rulers as well as by their occupants and occupied > countruesx. This is stil lthe case today and new events are coming almost > every day to recall it. This contaminates the basic concept of "nation" and > even th way we write and pronounce languages. >
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