yes, and my point is made.... all the torque you stated is produced at a higher rpm... i never said 500 ft lbs was unrealistic, just the rpm was...
From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:12:07 -0700 Subject: RE: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap The 454 is not the torque monster many give it credit for. It like the 460 ford suffer from bad runner design and restrictive intake and exhaust design. That is why many performance marine engines are based on 427's stroked to a 482. A far better design of bore vs stroke and much more efficient heads. Also why many jet boats rand 455 olds and 428 fords. The 340 in my cuda is bored 30 over, stock stroke, with ported and polished heads and performer rpm cam and i dynoed it at 433 hp and 450 lb ft @ 3900 rpm. The 383 in my duster is 425 hp and 495 ft lb. And my dads 440 is 455 hp and 550 lb ft @ 3200. That stroker small block should easily be at those numbers. High torque and low hp means that the engine develops power down low. Hp is not measured just a calculation of torque and rpm. I cant remember it right off the top of my head though. Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid -----Original message----- From: e b <[email protected]> To: UnifliteWorld <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Apr 10, 2012 18:19:39 GMT+00:00 Subject: RE: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap a brand new 454 big block GM MAG crate marine engine is rated at 392 HP at 5000 rpm and has 447 ft lbs of torque at 4000, your figure of 500 ft lbs at 2500 rpm seems off to me even with a stroker crank, id love to see the dyno figures on the motor, 500 ft lbs is certainly doable for a small block, but 3500 or 4000 rpm seems more realistic. Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:53:56 -0700 From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap To: [email protected] John, I don't know what engine my boat had when new. I bought it 12 years ago and it had a 1978 Chrysler Marine 360 in it at that time. The boat is a 1970, so it most likely had a 318 or 340 in it when new. The transmission was the VD with 1.5/1 reduction and appeared to be original. As far as I know, the 27 Express Cruiser was available with a single small block, a single big block, or twin 318's. I've not heard of twins larger than 318's. The twin set up I saw in Sitka did not have a reduction gear on the transmissions so it would have more fore and aft room for the engines. I think it had 13x11 props on it, or something in that range. I remember shuddering at the thought of trying to work on the outboard sides of the engines. I did not have to change the shaft angle or length when I changed transmissions. I just moved the engine back about four inches and used a three inch longer shaft coupler. The VD will take a fair amount of torque, but the limiting factor I ran into was the transmission coupling/drive plate. The spring type unit used on the factory set up wouldn't come close to the torque I'm producing (500 ft-pounds @2500 rpm) and the big block factory coupling won't fit a small block flywheel. I ended up going to a Vulkan Torflex coupling that was rated for the torque and RPM range I have, and having my flywheel machined to fit it. The machine shop then rebalanced the flywheel with the Vulkan coupling on it, set up for an internally balanced engine. I then got an internally balanced crank kit and matching damper and put it all together. Going from twins to a single would be a bit of work but you could get a strut from Sea Cure Technologies and have a rudder made for it. I expect Sea Cure would also have a rudder box, but I didn't ask them. I have gotten a strut from them when I threw a propeller blade at WOT and immediately snapped the strut in two from the imbalance. My original rudder was pretty tired and I had a new (longer) rudder made from stainless steel. The hull has mounting surfaces for twin struts glassed in, you'd just have to figure out where to drill the holes. The stringers are set up to mount either a single or twins. You'd have to reconfigure your steering system as well, I changed over from the factory cable to a hydraulic system that I also use to steer the auxiliary outboard. All this may not be worth it for you. You can buy a lot of gas, even at $5 per gallon, for the cost of reconfiguring the boat or re-powering with diesels. Unless you're a commercial operator it probably isn't worth it. John From: John Ellison <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap John, That is a ton of good info right there, thanks for taking the time to reply. I have pondered this twin motor set up a lot. I presume your boat would have originally had a 318? I suppose it could have been ordered with a 360? It has stuck me as odd that Uniflite built that boat in a single or twin configuration with the same motor? I have also wondered how close the front of the motor is to the bulkhead, in the photos I have seen they look like the ample space between them, but I bet the outboard sides are no fun getting at either? Did you have to change the angle/position of the prop shaft where it exited the hull? Or just shorten it to match the Hurth? The VD's 17's are right a rated torque/hp for a 360, I suspect they may not last with the power your motor is making........hhmmmm, will have to consider this when I get the boat.......I wonder what it will take to provide support for a single motor, move the rudder and prop......? No sleep tonight.......LOL John On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 5:49 PM, john hamilton <[email protected]> wrote: John, I think the carb wedge I bought was 12 degrees. It kept the carb pretty level most of the time. I don't think I would have wanted to run it without the wedge. That was my boat on Hughes engines. Single 360 block bored .040 over with a 4 inch Scat forged stroker crank, KB pistons, Eagle rods, custom grind Hughes roller cam and rockers, Edelbrock intake and Demon marine carb. The ignition is an electronic Mallory marine distributor. I changed the rotation from reverse to standard and put in a Hurth down angle transmission so I could keep the prop a right hand prop while running a standard rotation engine. With the helm on the port side it's easier to approach a dock port side to with the single right hand prop. The new transmission allowed me to ditch the carb wedge. It also let me pull the engine back away from the engine room bulkhead about four inches which helps with maintenance. The original straight Velvet Drive with a 1.5/1 reduction gear on it had the engine so close to the bulkhead you could just barely get a new belt on the pulley. The Hurth is about 50 pounds lighter than the Velvet Drive and the stainless exhaust manifolds are about 110 pounds lighter than the cast iron manifolds. I have a home made fiberglass dual exhaust system with twin fiberglass mufflers aft of the manifolds. It cruises 15-22 knots with wide open around 30 knots, more speed than I'll ever need. The 410 cubic inch torque monster motor allowed me to go from a 16x13 prop to a 17x15 prop, which really let me drop rpms at cruising speed. It completely changed the boat's personality. I also extended the rudder a couple of inches to give a little more stability above 20 knots. The factory rudder made it almost impossible to keep her straight and level above about 25 knots. The suggestion about replacing gas tanks when the engine's are out is a good one. I did it separately. It was a lot of work but I'm getting pretty good at removing and replacing the engine. I had custom made aluminum tanks built to fit the space. They're 68 gallons each. Range is important in Alaska. I have a single 30 hp Tohatsu four stroke outboard in the center of a home built aluminum swim step for when I need to go slow for long distances. The outboard gives me about 5.5 knots. I also use it for trolling. I've gone as far as 60 nautical miles on the outboard. My outboard was a deal I couldn't pass up (kind of like the rest of the boat) and it's not a high thrust motor. A high thrust 50 horse outboard should get you to to hull speed. With twins you'll have two rudders and twice the weight aft so she'll be a lot more stable at speed. Twin 360's will be a bit of overkill and you'll have limited range and poor fuel economy. She'll run pretty good though. I looked at a 27 Express for sale in Sitka a while ago. She had twin 318's and that engine room was pretty busy. I like being about to work on all sides of my engine. Good luck with your cruiser. Any questions about what I did and why I'll be glad to answer them. I really liked the job the guy in Arizona did with his cruiser. Single Cummins diesel with a stunning job on the interior. Beautiful boat. John From: John Ellison <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap Hi John, I think I have seen a write up on your boat on "Hughes engines"? I have scanned the Internet for info on these boats and its been fun to see what people have done. Good tip on the manifolds, that was one part I did not plan to replace, but may pull it to take a look now. We are still waiting to get the boat to Fairbanks. Did your boat come with a Velvet Drive? Is it a straight drive? This is a budget project for now, if in the future we decide we really like and use this boat enough to justify more projects.........then we can start looking at some options. I am not so concerned with power, as these two motors are rated at 250 each and the original 318's that are in the boat were most likely 225 hp. I am more concerned with operating costs, I am hoping the additional power allows me to operate the boat in a more efficient power band. If money was no object I would repower with twin diesels......maybe some yanmars.....? I do not know what boat the two 360's came out of? They do not have wedges under the carbs, however when we ran them last week we had them sitting on their motor mounts and the motor sat at a 12 degree angle. I presume the motor mounts would bear directly on the stringers and am assuming this 12 degree attitude would be fairly indicative of how the motors would set in the boat..........sure hope they fit, they ran good and sounded good also. We rebuilt the carbs and found the float level (both drop and against the seat) is a fairly small range, at least compared to a automotive setting, this may help to deal with the angle at which the motor sets. Lots to learn......Thanks, John On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 10:06 AM, john hamilton <[email protected]> wrote: John, I have a 27 Express Cruiser with a single small block in it. If you have the Velvet Drive the shaft angle is such that in my case the Chrysler intake manifold has a wedge built into it to keep the cargs level. When I pulled it, I found that manifold has 318 ports in it. That will choke off the power a lot more than the smaller valve sizes. You can go with an aftermarket intake and a separate wedge (I got mine online) and it will give a lot better power at planing speeds. John From: "Bohn, Steve" <[email protected]> To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 5:11 AM Subject: RE: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap While engines are out change gas tanks ???? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of e b Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 5:16 PM To: UnifliteWorld Subject: RE: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap john, i had an express cruiser for many years, if they are straight drives the swap should be pretty simple, i believe some 27's came with Vdrives, if that is the case its no big deal but you will have to retain the original transmissions. i would not worry about prop shafts, the stock is plenty strong for gas engines, i ran mine with a cummins diesel and 20" prop and never had a problem. your existing mounts should be fine as well. eric > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:20:23 -0700 > Subject: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > In December I made a "commitment" to buy a 27" Express Cruiser, I say > commitment because I have not seen the boat as it is buried under many > feet of snow. It is being shoveled off but I cannot retrieve it until > maybe May or more likely June. > > The price was right so unless the seller really misrepresented it, it > should be OK. The boat has 318's with Paragon Gears. It has not run in > a while and have been told that the motors do not trun over and need > to be replaced. > > 2 weeks ago a pair of 360's with Velvet drives, manifolds, heat > exchangers, etc showed up on CL. I bought the pair site unseen and > spent last Saturday getting them started. I only ran them briefly as > they were dry. I will need to move on the next step and get them ready > to go in the boat. I will most likley remove everything except the > intake, inspect reseal, repair rebuild as needed. > So far the motors look pretty good, sound good, and had clean oil in > both the motors and the trannies. > > I plan to set the motors up so I can run them for 1/2 hour or so and > check temp, pump pressure on the Velvet drives and make sure they > warrant further effort. > > I am really wondering how diffrent they will be from the Paragon > setup, its driving me crazy not having the boat to figure some of this > out...........I am new to the world of bigger boats and particuarly so > with inboards with gears....... > > So, are the motor mounts the same for both? will I need to modify the > propshaft? What am I getting into? > > I do not know anything about the boat, the 360's were removed to make > hull repairs. They have the "log" style manifolds and have a closed > cooling with sherwood raw water pumps and sendure heat exchangers. > > Thanks, John > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "UnifliteWorld" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "UnifliteWorld" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. 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