Ray, How do you monitor your fuel consumption? Do you just do the math or use electronics and a paddle wheel sensor in the fuel line? 1.5 mpg is better than what I have heard for the 318's, I have read to expect 10gph per motor at 15 -20 knots, The important number is the MPG. I use a electronic interface and a NMEA 2000 in my riverboat and it is spot on.
I certainly can see the benefits of only one motor, this boat isnt that big, serviceability, weight and using space for fuel are important considerations. The single high torque 360/410 is a interesting idea, however it sounds like it could get spendy and cant help but think for economy a single diesel would be the way to go. Used ones turn up if I could narrow it down to right motor I could start looking. It seems the cummins is much longer than the SB Chrysler's. I guess that the reason for going to a v-drive? Eric, at one time you were considering a Arneson drive, I may have asked before and you may have answered, (hard to keep up with all these creative juices flowing), did that not pan out as a reasonable choice of drive? they sure make some pretty substantial claims...John On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 4:43 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > I have a 72 Uniflite 27' cruiser with bridge and twin original 318's (2300 > hours). These came with 14 x 11 cupped props. Cruising light at 20 mph > (2650 rpm) we get 1.5 mpg. Cruising heavily loaded for a 50+ day trip we > get 1.3 mpg. But running slow on one engine at 8 mph in canals we get > up-wards to 2 mpg. Also there is a scribed oval on the bottom where the > hole for center shaft log should go. John is right, these boats could be > ordered with a single 318 (1.5-1), a single 440, or twin 318's (1-1). > Ray > > > --- [email protected] wrote: > > From: e b <[email protected]> > To: UnifliteWorld <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:19:28 -0700 > > > a brand new 454 big block GM MAG crate marine engine is rated at 392 HP at > 5000 rpm and has 447 ft lbs of torque at 4000, your figure of 500 ft lbs at > 2500 rpm seems off to me even with a stroker crank, id love to see the dyno > figures on the motor, 500 ft lbs is certainly doable for a small block, but > 3500 or 4000 rpm seems more realistic. > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:53:56 -0700 > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap > To: [email protected] > > John, > > I don't know what engine my boat had when new. I bought it 12 years ago > and it had a 1978 Chrysler Marine 360 in it at that time. The boat is a > 1970, so it most likely had a 318 or 340 in it when new. The transmission > was the VD with 1.5/1 reduction and appeared to be original. As far as I > know, the 27 Express Cruiser was available with a single small block, a > single big block, or twin 318's. I've not heard of twins larger than 318's. > > The twin set up I saw in Sitka did not have a reduction gear on the > transmissions so it would have more fore and aft room for the engines. I > think it had 13x11 props on it, or something in that range. I remember > shuddering at the thought of trying to work on the outboard sides of the > engines. > > I did not have to change the shaft angle or length when I changed > transmissions. I just moved the engine back about four inches and used a > three inch longer shaft coupler. The VD will take a fair amount of torque, > but the limiting factor I ran into was the transmission coupling/drive > plate. The spring type unit used on the factory set up wouldn't come close > to the torque I'm producing (500 ft-pounds @2500 rpm) and the big block > factory coupling won't fit a small block flywheel. I ended up going to a > Vulkan Torflex coupling that was rated for the torque and RPM range I have, > and having my flywheel machined to fit it. The machine shop then > rebalanced the flywheel with the Vulkan coupling on it, set up for an > internally balanced engine. I then got an internally balanced crank kit > and matching damper and put it all together. > > Going from twins to a single would be a bit of work but you could get a > strut from Sea Cure Technologies and have a rudder made for it. I expect > Sea Cure would also have a rudder box, but I didn't ask them. I have > gotten a strut from them when I threw a propeller blade at WOT and > immediately snapped the strut in two from the imbalance. My original > rudder was pretty tired and I had a new (longer) rudder made from stainless > steel. The hull has mounting surfaces for twin struts glassed in, you'd > just have to figure out where to drill the holes. The stringers are set up > to mount either a single or twins. You'd have to reconfigure your steering > system as well, I changed over from the factory cable to a hydraulic system > that I also use to steer the auxiliary outboard. > > All this may not be worth it for you. You can buy a lot of gas, even at > $5 per gallon, for the cost of reconfiguring the boat or re-powering with > diesels. Unless you're a commercial operator it probably isn't worth it. > > John > *From:* John Ellison <[email protected]> > *To:* [email protected] > *Sent:* Monday, April 9, 2012 9:57 PM > *Subject:* Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap > > John, > That is a ton of good info right there, thanks for taking the time to > reply. > I have pondered this twin motor set up a lot. I presume your boat would > have originally had a 318? I suppose it could have been ordered with a 360? > It has stuck me as odd that Uniflite built that boat in a single or twin > configuration with the same motor? > > I have also wondered how close the front of the motor is to the bulkhead, > in the photos I have seen they look like the ample space between them, but > I bet the outboard sides are no fun getting at either? > > Did you have to change the angle/position of the prop shaft where it > exited the hull? Or just shorten it to match the Hurth? The VD's 17's are > right a rated torque/hp for a 360, I suspect they may not last with the > power your motor is making........hhmmmm, will have to consider this when I > get the boat.......I wonder what it will take to provide support for a > single motor, move the rudder and prop......? > No sleep tonight.......LOL > John > > > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 5:49 PM, john hamilton <[email protected]> wrote: > > John, > > I think the carb wedge I bought was 12 degrees. It kept the carb pretty > level most of the time. I don't think I would have wanted to run it > without the wedge. > > That was my boat on Hughes engines. Single 360 block bored .040 over with > a 4 inch Scat forged stroker crank, KB pistons, Eagle rods, custom grind > Hughes roller cam and rockers, Edelbrock intake and Demon marine carb. The > ignition is an electronic Mallory marine distributor. I changed the > rotation from reverse to standard and put in a Hurth down angle > transmission so I could keep the prop a right hand prop while running a > standard rotation engine. With the helm on the port side it's easier to > approach a dock port side to with the single right hand prop. The new > transmission allowed me to ditch the carb wedge. It also let me pull the > engine back away from the engine room bulkhead about four inches which > helps with maintenance. The original straight Velvet Drive with a 1.5/1 > reduction gear on it had the engine so close to the bulkhead you could just > barely get a new belt on the pulley. The Hurth is about 50 pounds lighter > than the Velvet Drive and the stainless exhaust manifolds are about 110 > pounds lighter than the cast iron manifolds. I have a home made fiberglass > dual exhaust system with twin fiberglass mufflers aft of the manifolds. It > cruises 15-22 knots with wide open around 30 knots, more speed than I'll > ever need. The 410 cubic inch torque monster motor allowed me to go from a > 16x13 prop to a 17x15 prop, which really let me drop rpms at cruising > speed. It completely changed the boat's personality. I also extended the > rudder a couple of inches to give a little more stability above 20 knots. > The factory rudder made it almost impossible to keep her straight and > level above about 25 knots. The suggestion about replacing gas tanks > when the engine's are out is a good one. I did it separately. It was a > lot of work but I'm getting pretty good at removing and replacing the > engine. I had custom made aluminum tanks built to fit the space. They're > 68 gallons each. Range is important in Alaska. I have a single 30 hp > Tohatsu four stroke outboard in the center of a home built aluminum swim > step for when I need to go slow for long distances. The outboard gives me > about 5.5 knots. I also use it for trolling. I've gone as far as 60 > nautical miles on the outboard. My outboard was a deal I couldn't pass up > (kind of like the rest of the boat) and it's not a high thrust motor. A > high thrust 50 horse outboard should get you to to hull speed. > > With twins you'll have two rudders and twice the weight aft so she'll be a > lot more stable at speed. Twin 360's will be a bit of overkill and you'll > have limited range and poor fuel economy. She'll run pretty good though. > I looked at a 27 Express for sale in Sitka a while ago. She had twin > 318's and that engine room was pretty busy. I like being about to work on > all sides of my engine. Good luck with your cruiser. Any questions about > what I did and why I'll be glad to answer them. I really liked the job the > guy in Arizona did with his cruiser. Single Cummins diesel with a stunning > job on the interior. Beautiful boat. > > John > *From:* John Ellison <[email protected]> > *To:* [email protected] > *Sent:* Monday, April 9, 2012 2:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap > > Hi John, > I think I have seen a write up on your boat on "Hughes engines"? > > I have scanned the Internet for info on these boats and its been fun to > see what people have done. Good tip on the manifolds, that was one part I > did not plan to replace, but may pull it to take a look now. We are still > waiting to get the boat to Fairbanks. Did your boat come with a Velvet > Drive? Is it a straight drive? > > This is a budget project for now, if in the future we decide we really > like and use this boat enough to justify more projects.........then we can > start looking at some options. I am not so concerned with power, as these > two motors are rated at 250 each and the original 318's that are in the > boat were most likely 225 hp. > > I am more concerned with operating costs, I am hoping the additional power > allows me to operate the boat in a more efficient power band. > If money was no object I would repower with twin diesels......maybe some > yanmars.....? > > I do not know what boat the two 360's came out of? They do not have wedges > under the carbs, however when we ran them last week we had them sitting on > their motor mounts and the motor sat at a 12 degree angle. I presume the > motor mounts would bear directly on the stringers and am assuming this 12 > degree attitude would be fairly indicative of how the motors would set in > the boat..........sure hope they fit, they ran good and sounded good also. > > We rebuilt the carbs and found the float level (both drop and against the > seat) is a fairly small range, at least compared to a automotive setting, > this may help to deal with the angle at which the motor sets. > > Lots to learn......Thanks, John > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 10:06 AM, john hamilton <[email protected]>wrote: > > John, > > I have a 27 Express Cruiser with a single small block in it. If you have > the Velvet Drive the shaft angle is such that in my case the Chrysler > intake manifold has a wedge built into it to keep the cargs level. When I > pulled it, I found that manifold has 318 ports in it. That will choke off > the power a lot more than the smaller valve sizes. You can go with an > aftermarket intake and a separate wedge (I got mine online) and it will > give a lot better power at planing speeds. > > John > *From:* "Bohn, Steve" <[email protected]> > *To:* "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, April 9, 2012 5:11 AM > > *Subject:* RE: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap > > While engines are out change gas tanks ???? > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *e b > *Sent:* Friday, April 06, 2012 5:16 PM > *To:* UnifliteWorld > *Subject:* RE: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap > > john, > > i had an express cruiser for many years, if they are straight drives the > swap should be pretty simple, i believe some 27's came with Vdrives, if > that is the case its no big deal but you will have to retain the original > transmissions. i would not worry about prop shafts, the stock is plenty > strong for gas engines, i ran mine with a cummins diesel and 20" prop and > never had a problem. > your existing mounts should be fine as well. > > eric > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:20:23 -0700 > > Subject: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > > > In December I made a "commitment" to buy a 27" Express Cruiser, I say > > commitment because I have not seen the boat as it is buried under many > > feet of snow. It is being shoveled off but I cannot retrieve it until > > maybe May or more likely June. > > > > The price was right so unless the seller really misrepresented it, it > > should be OK. The boat has 318's with Paragon Gears. It has not run in > > a while and have been told that the motors do not trun over and need > > to be replaced. > > > > 2 weeks ago a pair of 360's with Velvet drives, manifolds, heat > > exchangers, etc showed up on CL. I bought the pair site unseen and > > spent last Saturday getting them started. I only ran them briefly as > > they were dry. I will need to move on the next step and get them ready > > to go in the boat. I will most likley remove everything except the > > intake, inspect reseal, repair rebuild as needed. > > So far the motors look pretty good, sound good, and had clean oil in > > both the motors and the trannies. > > > > I plan to set the motors up so I can run them for 1/2 hour or so and > > check temp, pump pressure on the Velvet drives and make sure they > > warrant further effort. > > > > I am really wondering how diffrent they will be from the Paragon > > setup, its driving me crazy not having the boat to figure some of this > > out...........I am new to the world of bigger boats and particuarly so > > with inboards with gears....... > > > > So, are the motor mounts the same for both? will I need to modify the > > propshaft? What am I getting into? > > > > I do not know anything about the boat, the 360's were removed to make > > hull repairs. They have the "log" style manifolds and have a closed > > cooling with sherwood raw water pumps and sendure heat exchangers. > > > > Thanks, John > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "UnifliteWorld" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > > > > > -- > > ___________________________________________________ > "Hang in There" "Dont be the guy in the station wagon......." > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > > > > > -- > > ___________________________________________________ > "Hang in There" "Dont be the guy in the station wagon......." > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "UnifliteWorld" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en. > -- ___________________________________________________ "Hang in There" "Dont be the guy in the station wagon......." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "UnifliteWorld" group. 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