Karen and list, I have been attempting to engage in discussions with several "community leaders" since the late 1990's. Although I posted announcements on the list earlier, I first started disclosing serious problems here starting in 2004. I offer my opinion to you based on my 4 years experience on this list and my prior personal experience.
To continue attempts to engage individuals, whom refuse to engage with anything other than mean spirited tricks to either obfuscate or intimidate real discussions; you engage an exercise in futility. In recent years we've seen listserv "ganging-up." We've seen power and credibility asserted on the basis of civic association status alone. And quite frankly, we've seen over the past few months the same listserv subscribers justifying censorship refuse ingenuous discourse on a continuous and regular basis. When they stayed away temporarily to promote the censorship; the civil discourse, offering opinoins, etc. on this listserv improved tremendously. Over the past 4 years, I eventually made a concentrated effort to address the destroyers of discussions using a number of strategies. I often ridiculed some of the perp's in ways in which I am personally uncomfortable. I considered not single posts; but certain community leaders constant pattern of mean spirited posts, and the overwhelming intimidation I felt was inflicted upon everyone. I think many folks do not understand my reasons, and object to my aggressive riducule. I accept that. To conclude, I want to warn you; engaging with some of these proponents of censorship for the sake of civility, (these community leaders); will prove to be an exercise in futility for you too. I believe that many silent members of our list are beginning to see the fallacious strategies employed by a number of posters and recognize their goals to be obfuscation and destruction of discussion. I believe it is important to continue to publicly analyze these powerplays by community leaders to discredit them. But I believe there to be no possibility that some of these individuals will at any time attempt to engage community discussions with genuine attempts at civil discourse. Respond as you think best, but don't feel like the 300+ subscribers don't recognize the patterns. I had sometimes felt that. My opinion and encouragement, Glenn Moyer ----- Original Message ----- From: KAREN ALLEN To: UnivCity listserv Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:25 PM Subject: RE: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? Lussenhop is trying to pass off appearances in the neighborhood as "public" meetings, despite the fact that there has been absolutely no attempt by him, his friends or his apologists to reach the average UC resident who does not happen to belong to the Historical Society, SHCA or any of the entities who show up at First Thursday or the Friends of 40th Street. Those organizations reach a small percentage of UC residents, and all UC residents, and not just the members of those groups, have a right to be informed and to be heard. I am not parsing words as you seem to be doing. Is SHCA or this list public? Yes, in a narrow way. Anyone who chooses to join are part of that "public" that makes up these entities. They are not private. But are these entities all-inclusive? No. You still insist on calling what I wrote to be "insulting nonsense" when I made it very clear what I meant by "public" and why what Lussenhop is doing is not going to pass muster in front of the Zoning Board if he tries to palm his "appearances" off as being "public meetings". I'm not going to convince you otherwise, and I'm not going to change my opinion. And if Lussenhop appears before the Zoning Board and tries to claim those appearances qualify as public meetings, I'm going to see to it that that claim is challenged. You will note that in my reaction to your insults that I did not ask for an apology. I don't ask for apologies because a bell cannot be unrung. I also regard an apology accompanied with excuses and more insults to not be an apology, but further insults. And for the record, you do not get to define for me the standard by which I consider what is "pointless", "insulting nonsense", and what is "out of character". You seem to think that your opinons are Truth Inviolate, and woe unto anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you. If you don't agree with me, fine. But you don't get to deem my opinion "pointless" "out of character" "insulting nonsense" simply because I committed the cardinal sin of disagreeing with you. And you also do not get to define me. You have decided what my "character" should be, and now you think that I have violated your "standards" of what you think my character should be. You now have to remind me what my "place" is, and how you expect that I won't violate your standards again. You do not define me, or what my opinon is or should be. You are very arrogant, sir, and you really need to do something about that. Karen Allen > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:58:03 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? > > I actually agree with Liz, and with Karen as well. I do not like printed > vulgarity and I try to avoid it myself. It was late at night and I must > have been influenced by Frank who, a few hours earlier, had let fly > exactly the same epithet at me, I notice. But it is my fault that I > allowed myself to be influenced, not Frank's that he influenced me. > > I do apologize to you, Karen for such pointless language. You did indeed > write insulting nonsense, which did deserve to be pointed out. You don't > usually, and I bet I won't often see you do so again. It's out of > character for you > > Furthermore, I never "left the list". Where did you get that idea? The > list stopped accepting my posts, as it did those of several other > people. Now it seems to be working again. Thank you, whoever helped fix it! > > -- Tony West > > > > Why the stretch? > > Karen was speaking for herself. > > > > I find it refreshing that she did not pretend to speak for others who may > > (or not) be offended by bad language. > > > > She did not drag other 'guilty' parties in. > > She did not adopt the mantle of List Police. > > > > I find Karen's posts to be specific and informative. > > > > Best! > > Liz > > > > > > On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:05:43 -0500 Brian Siano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > writes: > > > >> KAREN ALLEN wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Tony, > >>> DO NOT CURSE AT ME!!!! > >>> > >>> I did not curse at you, and I will not tolerate you cursing at me. > >>> > >> In other circumstances, I'd be sympathetic to your complaint. > >> > >> But remember, this is a list where cursing has happened in the past, > >> > >> where people other than Tony regularly insult others (a recent > >> "assholes"' shot seems to have escaped your notice). And please > >> recall > >> that several people here-- need I name names?-- regularly insult the > >> UC > >> Neighbors list because it was set up to be a more civil, friendlier > >> place. > >> > >> In other words, you're demanding Tony follow a kind of civility that > >> you > >> don't demand from others, and on a mailing list where people seem to > >> > >> pride themselves on not being "censored." You haven't minded it when > >> > >> other people (including Tony) are cursed at. And you're on a list > >> where > >> asking for Special Treatment is _clearly_ not respected. > >> > >> So I'm not impressed by this. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ---- > >> You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the > >> list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, > >> see > >> <http://www.purple.com/list.html>. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Elizabeth Campion Cell Phone: 215-880-2930 > > 215-546-0550 Main, -546-9871 fax, Desk + VM: 215-790-5653 > > PRUDENTIAL, FOX & ROACH REALTORS, LLC > > Please read Consumer Notice & enjoy "HOME PILOT" tools at > > www.PruFoxRoach.com > > ---- > > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the > > list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see > > <http://www.purple.com/list.html>. > > > > > > > > > ---- > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the > list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see > <http://www.purple.com/list.html>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.1/1141 - Release Date: 11/20/2007 11:34 AM
