Committers have a way of speaking for the world. That is a wonderful thing. I can only speak for myself. I can also only listen for myself.
On 7/28/05, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael / Jack / Thingamabob, > > Struts is licensed in such a way that if you are unhappy with the way it > is being managed, you are quite free to fork the code and continue to > develop it in whatever way *you* see fit. > > I suspect you'd make a lot of people very happy if you went away and did > that. > > Steve > > Dakota Jack wrote: > > >Struts could live by improving in ways unlikely with the present > >management. The people in charge of Struts these days are really > >interested in something else. Unless the baton passes to those > >actively building something, Struts likely will either die from be > >non-competitive with like products or from being turned into something > >it is not, like JSF, Shale, Clay, Dirt. > > > >On 7/26/05, Greg Reddin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>Interesting this discussion would come up now. I've been in and out of > >>Struts for about 5 years. I'm now coming back in and taking interest in > >>JSF/Shale, etc. A few of points to think about: > >> > >>1. Struts will someday die. If it doesn't, then we've seen the end of > >>technology advancement. If those of us who love Struts and what it > >>provides want to continue to have influence going forward, we have to be > >> ready to embrace the next thing that's better than Struts and add > >>value there. Staying with something because of familiarity is typically > >>the road to becoming a dinosaur in technology. > >> > >>2. I only started studying JSF seriously about 2 weeks ago. From what > >>I've seen it takes the best things Struts offers and brings them into a > >>somewhat cleaner package. Those things are: > >> > >>* Nice HTML tag library. > >>* Auto-populating of form beans. > >>* Simple controller interface. > >> > >>It also expands on these things by making the view easier to develop, > >>less restriction on how form beans and controllers are developed, and > >>some other really interesting services that I've only begun to play > >>with. To sum it up, using JSF out of the box I can do most of what I > >>can with Struts, only quicker and with less code. I see JSF as the next > >>step of Struts. But it's still not complete. I'm only beginning to see > >>what Shale adds to JSF and am following Shale with great interest. > >> > >>3. PHP. I've done some PHP over the last couple years. I'm by no > >>means an expert, but I do know my way around somewhat. The whole time > >>I've caught myself thinking if I was in Java I'd have a better way to do > >>just about everything. But most of the "better way" is because of the > >>J2EE APIs, Struts, and Tiles. The language is a bit more cumbersome > >>than Java and it's much more difficult to modularize. I find PHP is > >>easier (to me) if I don't try to make things elegant, but just "spew > >>code" to some extent. I finally found a CMS to use as a Struts-like > >>framework, but I still find Java/Struts and now JSF to be better, > >>cleaner, and more modular. I am now trying to figure out a way to do my > >>future "on-the-side" consulting in Java instead of PHP. > >> > >>I think another of PHPs success factors has to do with its acceptance > >>from the open source community. Somehow Java has had a somewhat tainted > >>reputation due to the lack of a truly open complete implementation -- > >>and probably some are just bitter that Sun hasn't opened the whole thing > >>up. I don't personally have anything to contribute to that debate, but > >>I suspect it's a factor in why PHP has been so widely embraced on the > >>web compared to Java. > >> > >>So all in all, it doesn't much matter to me if JSF supercedes Struts. > >>If it's better, then it should. If we get behind Shale it think we can > >>have our cake and eat it too. > >> > >>BTW, for JSF info, try MyFaces. Their Getting Started section points to > >>some pretty good tutorials. In short testing I've found the myfaces > >>implementation to be pretty stable. I'm actually surprised Craig is not > >>listed as a contributor to that project. > >> > >>That's my 50 cents. > >>Greg > >> > >>Daniel Perry wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Sorry for the OT postings. > >>> > >>>My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts. > >>> > >>>The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never overtake the > >>>number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although... zend are > >>>doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the > enterprise > >>>arena and tying it with java). But for those same reasons, comparing > the > >>>two is useless. > >>> > >>>As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got my head > round > >>>it. I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just look at > daily > >>>rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of replacing struts > >>>html tags with JSF. I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than the logic > >>>tags. > >>> > >>>I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another project. What > >>>technologies do i use? > >>> > >>>I guess i'll probably stick with struts. Though i may dabble with JSF a > >>>bit. > >>> > >>>Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search provides > tons > >>>of information... but which is any good? > >>> > >>>Daniel. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38 > >>>>To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' > >>>>Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too > >>>>many times. > >>>>Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just releases their > >>>>latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may smile wryly. > >>>> > >>>>The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the number of > >>>>products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the > >>>>telecoms industry > >>>>will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts. > >>>> > >>>>I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems powerful but I > am > >>>>not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and like the way > >>>>struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but > >>>>also a lot of > >>>>powerful taglibs. > >>>> > >>>>If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it > >>>>needs that > >>>>it seems to be lacking. > >>>> > >>>>I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the > previous > >>>>comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I > >>>>would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans > >>>>plane photos web site. > >>>> > >>>>As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever else) needs > >>>>server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its threaded. Am I > right > >>>>in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can > >>>>cause some > >>>>processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the > answer. > >>>>This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but I am not > >>>>going to utter another sentence about PHP. > >>>> > >>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46 > >>>>To: Struts Users Mailing List > >>>>Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!! > >>>> > >>>>PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web page. > Main > >>>>difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt require > any > >>>>declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able programmers. > >>>> > >>>>But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot more > server > >>>>resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual > hosting > >>>>servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant. > >>>> > >>>>Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up php in > a > >>>>couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet etc. > >>>> > >>>>This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i > >>>>normally pass it > >>>>on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger > sites/apps > >>>>that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers. > >>>> > >>>>Daniel. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>>From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17 > >>>>>To: Struts Users Mailing List > >>>>>Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in > >>>>>real applications. > >>>>> > >>>>>EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of > >>>>>configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept > >>>>>many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI examples). > >>>>> > >>>>>Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for > >>>>>always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases, > >>>>>following sun too closely is not wise. > >>>>> > >>>>>PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application. > >>>>> > >>>>>John H. Xu > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.usanalyst.com > >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North > America) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: netsql > >>>>> To: user@struts.apache.org > >>>>> Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!! > >>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500 > >>>>> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > John Public wrote: > >>>>> > > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently > >>>>> > > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts > >>>>> > > becoming OBSOLETE. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001. > >>>>> > Put up a site and lets see it. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Let's all get > >>>>> > > behind JSF before MS takes over the web. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO. > >>>>> > I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)" for > >>>>> > "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I think > >>>>> > the future is client side rendering ) > >>>>> > If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get > >>>>> behind it". > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using > >>>>> > better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > -- .V > >>>>> > > >>>>> > People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up > >>>>> their > >>>>> > mail box. > >>>>> > roomity.com > >>>>> > > >>>>> > No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>Jack H. Xu > >>>>>Technology columnist and editor > >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.usanalyst.com > >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North > America) > >>>>> > >>>>>-- > >>>>>___________________________________________________________ > >>>>>Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com > >>>>>http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
