I'm not speaking for the world, but I am +1 to what Steve said. If
you are truly unhappy, take the code elsewhere. That is what I am
planning to do for a certain commons component in a few months. I am
unhappy about how it is being maintained, and the author/committer
refuses to listen to reasonable arguments (from me and others), so
I'll just take what's there and roll my own. I can do that with any
Apache Licensed software, that's the point of the license.
Go for it!! I dare you!!
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance
EdgeTech, Inc.
http://www.edgetechservices.net/
678.910.8017
AIM: jmitchtx
Yahoo: jmitchtx
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype: jmitchtx
On Jul 29, 2005, at 1:48 PM, Dakota Jack wrote:
Committers have a way of speaking for the world. That is a wonderful
thing. I can only speak for myself. I can also only listen for
myself.
On 7/28/05, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Michael / Jack / Thingamabob,
Struts is licensed in such a way that if you are unhappy with the
way it
is being managed, you are quite free to fork the code and continue to
develop it in whatever way *you* see fit.
I suspect you'd make a lot of people very happy if you went away
and did
that.
Steve
Dakota Jack wrote:
Struts could live by improving in ways unlikely with the present
management. The people in charge of Struts these days are really
interested in something else. Unless the baton passes to those
actively building something, Struts likely will either die from be
non-competitive with like products or from being turned into
something
it is not, like JSF, Shale, Clay, Dirt.
On 7/26/05, Greg Reddin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Interesting this discussion would come up now. I've been in and
out of
Struts for about 5 years. I'm now coming back in and taking
interest in
JSF/Shale, etc. A few of points to think about:
1. Struts will someday die. If it doesn't, then we've seen the
end of
technology advancement. If those of us who love Struts and what it
provides want to continue to have influence going forward, we
have to be
ready to embrace the next thing that's better than Struts and add
value there. Staying with something because of familiarity is
typically
the road to becoming a dinosaur in technology.
2. I only started studying JSF seriously about 2 weeks ago.
From what
I've seen it takes the best things Struts offers and brings them
into a
somewhat cleaner package. Those things are:
* Nice HTML tag library.
* Auto-populating of form beans.
* Simple controller interface.
It also expands on these things by making the view easier to
develop,
less restriction on how form beans and controllers are
developed, and
some other really interesting services that I've only begun to play
with. To sum it up, using JSF out of the box I can do most of
what I
can with Struts, only quicker and with less code. I see JSF as
the next
step of Struts. But it's still not complete. I'm only
beginning to see
what Shale adds to JSF and am following Shale with great interest.
3. PHP. I've done some PHP over the last couple years. I'm by no
means an expert, but I do know my way around somewhat. The
whole time
I've caught myself thinking if I was in Java I'd have a better
way to do
just about everything. But most of the "better way" is because
of the
J2EE APIs, Struts, and Tiles. The language is a bit more
cumbersome
than Java and it's much more difficult to modularize. I find
PHP is
easier (to me) if I don't try to make things elegant, but just
"spew
code" to some extent. I finally found a CMS to use as a Struts-
like
framework, but I still find Java/Struts and now JSF to be better,
cleaner, and more modular. I am now trying to figure out a way
to do my
future "on-the-side" consulting in Java instead of PHP.
I think another of PHPs success factors has to do with its
acceptance
from the open source community. Somehow Java has had a somewhat
tainted
reputation due to the lack of a truly open complete
implementation --
and probably some are just bitter that Sun hasn't opened the
whole thing
up. I don't personally have anything to contribute to that
debate, but
I suspect it's a factor in why PHP has been so widely embraced
on the
web compared to Java.
So all in all, it doesn't much matter to me if JSF supercedes
Struts.
If it's better, then it should. If we get behind Shale it think
we can
have our cake and eat it too.
BTW, for JSF info, try MyFaces. Their Getting Started section
points to
some pretty good tutorials. In short testing I've found the
myfaces
implementation to be pretty stable. I'm actually surprised
Craig is not
listed as a contributor to that project.
That's my 50 cents.
Greg
Daniel Perry wrote:
Sorry for the OT postings.
My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.
The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never
overtake the
number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although...
zend are
doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the
enterprise
arena and tying it with java). But for those same reasons,
comparing
the
two is useless.
As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got
my head
round
it. I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just
look at
daily
rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of
replacing struts
html tags with JSF. I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than
the logic
tags.
I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another
project. What
technologies do i use?
I guess i'll probably stick with struts. Though i may dabble
with JSF a
bit.
Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search
provides
tons
of information... but which is any good?
Daniel.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too
many times.
Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just
releases their
latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may
smile wryly.
The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the
number of
products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the
telecoms industry
will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts.
I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems
powerful but I
am
not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and
like the way
struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but
also a lot of
powerful taglibs.
If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it
needs that
it seems to be lacking.
I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the
previous
comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large
applications. I
would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my
old mans
plane photos web site.
As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever
else) needs
server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its
threaded. Am I
right
in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can
cause some
processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the
answer.
This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but
I am not
going to utter another sentence about PHP.
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web
page.
Main
difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt
require
any
declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able
programmers.
But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot
more
server
resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass
virtual
hosting
servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.
Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick
up php in
a
couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP
+Servlet etc.
This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
normally pass it
on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger
sites/apps
that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.
Daniel.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
real applications.
EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI
examples).
Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
following sun too closely is not wise.
PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
John H. Xu
http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
America)
----- Original Message -----
From: netsql
To: user@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500
John Public wrote:
After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
becoming OBSOLETE.
:-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
Put up a site and lets see it.
Let's all get
behind JSF before MS takes over the web.
Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)"
for
"genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I
think
the future is client side rendering )
If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get
behind it".
Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using
better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.
-- .V
People are conversing... without posting their email or
filling up
their
mail box.
roomity.com
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http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
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