The view "controller" is not a controller in the Web-MVC sense and is completely misleading, in my opinion, Mark. So part of this just may be who's dog is in the hunt?
The point of the tool-based and VB analogy is that JSF tries to hide from you, to do it for you, what other frameworks, like Struts, demand you know. This allows quick turnaround and allows the construction of tools. This was the charter for JSF. It is not a bug, it is deliberate. So, if this confuses a new person, at least it has the value of being accurate as hell. So, if you want to use programmers with little experience and train them to use the inevitable tools, just like with the community college VB junkies, JSF is a good alternative. If you think a smaller cadre of thinking and knowing engineers is the way to go, like cs graduates who know Java or C++, then Struts is the way to go. JSF is not more page centric than Struts. JSF is page centric. Struts is not page centric. Something has to take JSF from page to page, and this is called a "view controller" due to an unfortunate naming of a pattern having to do with views, pages. This, again, is NOT a controller as you find in Struts. I personally would find my VB and C++ the most helpful. I always find heuristics the most helpful, unless you want to get bogged down in irrelevant detail, like "view controller". This is essentially the sort of choice you are making. VB is a tool based, dumbed down, "language". JSF is a tool based, dumbed down "framework". C++ is a full blown language. Struts is a full blown framework. On 1/7/06, Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 1/7/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > JSF is page centric rather than Action centric. There is no controller > as > > you understand that in Struts with JSF. JSF is for a tool based, dumbed > > down, approach: JSF is to Struts as Visual Basic is to C++. > > JSF is more page centric than struts, but they aren't chalk and > cheese. The view controller is still in the backing bean and then > mapping of outcome to jsp is done via xml configuration. How page or > controller centric you want jsf to be is upto you, this is where the > diffence between JSF being a spec and struts a framework start being > more visible. > > If I was asking how to get started with jsf and shale I'd find your VB > vs C++ statement confusing and not very helpful at all. > > Mark > > > > > On 1/6/06, Rick Mann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks for the response, Craig. It's nice to get an answer from THE > > > authority :-). Questions below... > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2006, at 5:16 PM, Craig McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > > I'd definitely ignore anything about prereleases of JSF 1.0 ... > > > > that has > > > > been out for nearly two years now. A good starting place for > > > > general JSF > > > > knowledge and information is <http://jsfcentral.com>. Kito does a > > > > good job > > > > of staying on top of the most recent articles and items of > > > > interest. This, > > > > by the way, is *exactly* the place to start before looking much at > > > > Shale > > > > itself -- Shale *srongly* presumes that you are familiar with JSF, > > > > and what > > > > it brings to the table all by itself, because it focuses on adding > > > > value > > > > around the edges. Without understanding those edges a little, it's > > > > harder > > > > to appreciate the benefits :-). > > > > > > Okay, I'll try to find a "hello world" JSF example. That might be > > > enough for me to build on. > > > > > > A question comes up: what has happened to Tiles? Is it no longer a > > > part of Struts? I'm still terribly unfamiliar with the new Struts > > > website. > > > > > > Do I bother creating a nice Tiles hierarchy of layouts and tiles? Or > > > is there some other way to get site L&F re-use? > > > > > > > Beyond the Shale web site[1], there's not a heck of a lot of stuff > > > > yet. One > > > > high level overview is the session I did at ApacheCon (reprised > > > > from one > > > > that David Geary and I did at JavaOne)[2] ... but the slides lose a > > > > little > > > > in the translation without the corresponding demo program, which is > > > > not in a > > > > shape that I'm quite ready to check in yet :-). > > > > > > Okay, I'll hold off worrying about Shale for now. Sounds like I can > > > work it in easily enough when the time comes. > > > > > > > > > Here's my big question: do I still think in terms of Struts Actions > > > handling the business logic of my application (which they rarely do; > > > they usually glue to the "real" biz code)? Or do I look to putting > > > all that glue within JSF controllers? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > -- > > > Rick > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > back." > > ~Dakota Jack~ > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
