Hi :) It's sometimes difficult to appreciate the work that others are doing especially if it's in a very different area and especially if you do tons of work yourself. Dan does tons of very heavy lifting that hardly ever gets appreciated. Everyone's effort, however little, should be appreciated more but doubtless there are some people that do notice and do appreciate whatever people do here but they wont always say so. Regards from Tom :)
>________________________________ > From: Heinrich Stoellinger <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Monday, 1 October 2012, 17:25 >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] MS problems > >Gosh, Dan! >What am I doing about LO? Well, for ONE thing, I push it in my organisation >and elsewhere. Unfortunately I really don't have the time to do much more than >spreading the gospel... >Over and out! >H.S. >On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 18:19:06 +0200, Dan Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Personally, this entire thread is a waste of time. Who cares who >> is a "moron" as far as IT is concerned? Why complain about anything >> unless you are going to do something about it? There is not a single >> person that has contributed to this thread that is too old to contribute >> to making LO better. >> Yes, LO needs to be made better and the documentation needs to be >> improved. But what are you doing about it? If you aren't doing anything >> to improve it, you are wasting your time typing words that serve no real >> purpose. >> I'm working to make the documentation better. What are you doing >> about it? Sorry, but no excuses are allowed in your answer. I don't use >> them so you can't either. Oh, using the phrase "I can't" usually is the >> equivalent to "I won't" and the latter may well be the real meaning. >> >> --Dan >> >> On 10/01/2012 11:50 AM, Heinrich Stoellinger wrote: >>> Hello Pertti, >>> I couldn't agree more with you! I used to work for Mother Blue for nearly >>> 30 years, dealing with large customers as a systems engineer. Even then >>> it occurred to me from time to time that we IT specialists thought that >>> IT was the only worthwhile endeavour. But, clearly, the business of a >>> steel >>> firm is to produce steel, banks, well..., shipping companies and their >>> managers worry about shipping, travel agencies about holiday makers, >>> etc., >>> etc., and not to be proficient in IT. >>> IT is basically just a TOOL which they employ to get THEIR business done. >>> Just because somebody doesn't know C++ or Java, he/she is by no means a >>> "moron". IBM had/has excellent products. Selling these to customers was >>> never easy by any means - we were usually somewhat more costly. But, >>> buying >>> from the "world standard" was SAFE, and service was RELIABLE even on >>> night >>> shifts. >>> IT managers of sizable companies need a LOT of courage and stamina to >>> turn their back on the "main stream". >>> As an aside - I have been using Open Software for decades now and will >>> continue to do so (Apache, MySQL, OO/LO, Squirrelmail, Courier,..., etc., >>> etc.). I don't like monopolies! But then, I only look after a 50-piece >>> brass band... (www.rainermusik.at) >>> Regards from Salzburg >>> H. S. >>> >>> On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:22:03 +0200, Pertti Rönnberg <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Joep, >>>> Thank you for your reply. >>>> I am happy to say I had the privilege to in business visit your very >>>> beautiful and interesting country - and especially Amsterdam - some >>>> times very, very many years ago. >>>> I am also retired since ten years back and used to work on manager level >>>> in some companies mostly in metal industry, planning and delivering >>>> plants. >>>> But not IT, I am an IT consumer since early 1980 - so you surely know >>>> that IT field from 'inside' better than me but I know quite well the >>>> decision making in my former environments. >>>> >>>> I have for years been very well aware of all what you say about MS's >>>> behavior and marketing policy - I agree with you completely and do >>>> dislike the situation as much as you. >>>> In many (most) companies/organizations (other than IT) the managers have >>>> quite little own knowledge in IT why they do not have many alternatives: >>>> they have to buy the IT from outside (more or less) experts or build up >>>> a IT-dept of their own. In both cases they have to rely on other >>>> people's knowhow and recommendations. >>>> And if all (95% ?) your important contacts, customers, officials, >>>> private, etc. use Windows, and all of your own staff know (only) >>>> Windows/MSO then the economic calculation says that you must "talk the >>>> same language" -- you can not afford anything else. >>>> >>>> I strongly disagree with you about Jay's and Wolfgang' s behavior - take >>>> a look at my parallel post "MS problems" some minutes earlier. >>>> If these managers concentrate on their own jobs - and buy the IT - it >>>> does not qualify them to be called "IT-illiteral morons" as Jay and >>>> Wolfgang did. >>>> >>>> In 30 years I have had no problems (!) with the Windows' programs (the >>>> cost are a relative matter), but from January this year when installing >>>> LibO I have had too much problems with Base (and Calc) - and according >>>> to this list there are a lot of others having real problems with LibO >>>> too. >>>> In my opinion there is only one way for LibO: to become in every way >>>> better than MSO especially for ordinary private users, user friendly, >>>> stable, reliable, free of bugs and problems. These will then make it >>>> easier for companies to convert to OpenSource/LibO. >>>> Best regards >>>> Pertti Rönnberg (Finland) >>>> The End! >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1.10.2012 13:51, Joep L. Blom wrote: >>>>> On 01-10-12 11:57, Pertti Rönnberg wrote: >>>>>> Dear Wolfgang & Jay, >>>>>> A. so in your opinion people - both young and old - not yet knowing >>>>>> anything about computers, perhaps buying their first unit, are - not >>>>>> only "IT-illiterate" but also "morons" >>>>>> >>>>>> B. so you agree that among these "IT-illiterate morons (= idiots)" >>>>>> are bosses, persons in chief position (managers). >>>>>> When responsible for their dept's/company's strategic and operative >>>>>> effectiveness and economical result, these "IT-illiterate morons" >>>>>> decide >>>>>> about the need of an IT-department -- and employ an IT-manager to that >>>>>> department to take care of the company's IT-system, programs and >>>>>> personnel included. >>>>>> Are you not barking at a wrong tree - is it not this your IT-superior >>>>>> you should bark at? >>>>>> I take it obvious that neither of you can be in a manager position. >>>>>> >>>>>> C. Obviously you qualify yourselves as highly "IT-literate" -- >>>>>> perhaps even "non-morons". >>>>>> Some weeks ago LibO invited people to take part to make LibO better. >>>>>> Would it not be an good idea that you - instead of blaming others - >>>>>> took >>>>>> the opportunity to practice your high quality IT-knowledge to the >>>>>> benefit of LibO. >>>>>> Best regards >>>>>> Pertti Rönnberg >>>>> >>>>> Pertti, >>>>> As a Dutch (now retired) manager of a small business in IT I must >>>>> disagree. Yes, Jay and Wolfgang are not very polite but they surely >>>>> are right. I won't call them "morons" or "idiots" but choosers for >>>>> safety on false grounds. >>>>> Don't forget a salesman in a computer-shop will never tell a person >>>>> that he could use Open Source software when he can sell him buggy >>>>> Microsoft software with a profit of > 30%. He will tell him that on >>>>> his computer only certified Microsoft software will work correctly. >>>>> You and I know its complete nonsense but an IT-illiterate layman - >>>>> especially those that are afraid of everything technical - believes >>>>> him. The same goes for managers with even less interest in technical >>>>> matters and a willing ear for equals who sells him there stuff. >>>>> It is not for nothing that governments (Peru, Germany and many >>>>> others) demand the use of Open Source software instead of the use of >>>>> closed source, dangerous and expensive software. Twenty years ago the >>>>> hard- and software world was completely different and there Microsoft >>>>> has made his largest impact using unlawful methods to make everybody >>>>> believe their software was the only one to be used.A small >>>>> governmental action contrary was when the European Committee forced >>>>> Microsoft to pay a fine of > $ 500,000 and to remove Internet explorer >>>>> as integral part of their OS. But the main objection against the >>>>> activities of Microsoft remain valid: the disinformation of managers >>>>> and decisional people on the fact that they have to pay yearly for >>>>> service not delivered. Since 1981 when Microsoft began to SELL >>>>> software the buyer owned the software. Now Microsoft want to steal the >>>>> ownership from the buyer by stating that the software is not bought >>>>> but leased. That is wrong. Software running on a remote system not >>>>> owned by the buyer - and running only there - can be leased just as >>>>> installed software on a leased system. In all other cases the software >>>>> is owned. >>>>> Moreover, when I buy a car and after a day my car is broken in due to >>>>> an unreliable lock, I get all refunded. Tell that to Microsoft!! >>>>> Joep >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >-- >Erstellt mit Operas revolutionärem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > >-- >For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: [email protected] >Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: [email protected] Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
