Sure, I have made myself a todo item. I am going to ask for feedback within the company and then I will send this list to the group and/or create jira issues accordingly.
-----Original Message----- From: Brian E. Fox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 3:57 PM To: Maven Users List Subject: RE: surefire and testng integration issues with surefire-2.4.2 Jason, The kinds of complaints you get at work are exactly what I'm (and I'm sure the rest of the team) interested in getting from the user list. Would you be willing to summarize the particular issues your team is having? (in a new thread) Some of them we may know of, but maybe not and having this list to work from can only help us make things better. In 2.0.9 we kind of focused on pulling in the various pain points that we know of, especially ones that simply stop people in their tracks and/or keep them on earlier versions. For example: 2.0.9 locks down all lifecycle default plugin versions, which is one thing we heard was a constant problem. Even though the idea was previously rejected, the constant feedback to the alternative made us listen and make the change. Certainly these are not the only pain points out there so I'd love to have a list. Thanks, Brian -----Original Message----- From: Jason Chaffee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:40 PM To: Maven Users List Subject: RE: surefire and testng integration issues with surefire-2.4.2 Jason van Zyl, First, let me apologize for the tone of my emails and to anyone I offended. That was never my intent. I let my frustration, and the fact that I am on morphine (from a motorcycle accident) get the best of my diplomatic writing skills. :) I would like to add that my wording may stem from the frustration I see everyday. I have been the strongest advocate for maven at my company so when people have maven problems, I typically take the blame and it does cause my performance reviews to be affected because people feel like my advocating of maven has hindered their ability to effectively do their jobs due to time spent debugging maven instead of our code. I am going to say this and I don't want anyone to take it personally or think of it as an attack, in case it comes across that way, that is not my intention. I work in an open environment where I can see and hear just about everything that is said by our developers. Daily, I hear people cursing maven and making statements such as "I hate maven", etc. It reminds me of the many Windows rants you used to hear in the work place on a regular basis due to Windows freezing or the blue screen of death. I have done my best to defend and even improve maven both for my company and the community. At some point though, I have look up and say, "why am I seeing they same type of problems on an ongoing basis?" Things breaking in new versions, things not being fixed for more than a year despite clamoring for it by the community, etc. That is the place from which my email stemmed, because I am bombarded daily about maven complaints. I was careful not to call out anyone individually because I feel everyone does do a good job and works hard. I just felt it was time for some "harsh criticism" to make it back to the group for a couple of reasons 1) awareness, it can't be corrected if there isn't awareness and 2) I think sometimes that making people aware of things in this way, it can provide a so called wake-up call. I appreciate everyone that has worked on maven and I am still a supporter. I just want people to be aware that that there is a ground swell out there that considers maven to be a "build tool from hell", this a quote I have heard from managers within my company. Also, I mentioned ASF not because Maven makes ASF bad or vice versa, but when one project starts gathering a ground swell, it can make the parent (ASF) look bad simply based on association. This has been the case at least with a couple of people in my company and again, I have to defend it. While it may appear that I am attacking maven and/or ASF, I am really trying to inform you of what I am seeing out in the "real world" and I do think the negative views are becoming harder and harder to debunk, at least that is what I am experiencing. So, I hope that this dialogue will only help the Maven team think of these things as they make decisions because sometimes doing something in only a slightly different manner or communicating in a slightly different manner can change the perception and thus remove some of the negative thoughts people currently have about maven. I apologize for not writing something like this in the first place and instead writing something that seems to be laced with venom. -----Original Message----- From: Jason van Zyl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 12:10 PM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: surefire and testng integration issues with surefire-2.4.2 On 20-Mar-08, at 10:47 AM, Jason Chaffee wrote: > I am simply glad that it got someone's attention and I feel that in no > way was the tone of that email blasting anyone, it was informing the > maven community of the perception that is developing around maven and > ASF in the java community and our frustration. I did not call out any > one person individually nor did I attack anyone. Perhaps this is part > of the problem, the over sensitive response when people do provide > critical feedback. It feels like there is an instant defense > mechanism > and it just leads fosters the perceptions and frustrations I mentioned > previously. > Reacting to you floating the notion that the whole project lacks quality while siting your specific problem with Surefire I believe is justified. Brian was only making a counter to your implied assertion that we're not doing anything to improve the quality of the project. So I would agree that it's not an overt blasting, but it was a subtle tactic to illicit a response to your particular problem. Brian simply pointing out that it's not appreciated using an argument of community discontent to get attention. JIRA, patches, and siting the problem at hand will also work. > I have been defending maven for a long time, I just have reached a > point > that I feel enough is enough. If you have to continue to defend > something for what some people perceive as the same mistakes over and > over again, it is time to speak up. > Sure, but the first visible entry point for a dialog should be trying to work with developers like Dan to work through the problem. Not use your argument to gain an entry point to the discussion -- though this seemed to work for you. > Anyway, I will refrain from speaking up again as "I feel" like it > isn't > worth the trouble. > If an exchange of a few emails with Brian where he is trying to show a better path to get solutions make you feel like it's not worth communicating further then I would say the overreaction is more on your part. You made reasonable requests, albeit laden with assertions irrelevant to getting a solution, and Brian made reasonable responses. It also looks like people are trying to help you sort out your issues on the dev list. So don't give up so easily, I think you'll get where you want get. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian E. Fox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:30 AM > To: Maven Users List > Subject: RE: surefire and testng integration issues with > surefire-2.4.2 > > In the meantime, perhaps a Jira would be good so we don't lose the > time > you invested so far. > > FYI: We are working hard to stabilize the Maven 2.0.x branch by > increasing the test coverage and IT coverage. We rely on volunteer > effort to help fix these things as they come up. We appreciate the > effort you put in here but blasting the team about instability doesn't > really help solve anything. We know there are issues and want to fix > them, it's not like we enjoy volunteering to intentionally make > something that annoys you. I've recently done polls to find out the > pain > points for people upgrading and we are addressing those in 2.0.9 and > 2.0.10. Hopefully we will start to see some gains in the next > releases. > > As far as TestNG support goes, this is still new and I think the users > are in the minority, so I guess I'm not really surprised that it's not > perfect yet. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Chaffee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 1:17 PM > To: Maven Users List > Subject: RE: surefire and testng integration issues with > surefire-2.4.2 > > I will look into creating something as soon as I have time to make > sure > it is well tested. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian E. Fox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:11 AM > To: Maven Users List > Subject: RE: surefire and testng integration issues with > surefire-2.4.2 > > We are listening. Can you make a patch for surefire? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Chaffee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 12:57 PM > To: Maven Developers List; Maven Users List > Subject: RE: surefire and testng integration issues with > surefire-2.4.2 > > Yeah, I have no problem writing my own. However, if this is to be > expected of TestNG users to get similar output as previous versions of > surefire, then it should be WELL documented as such. > > My issue is that the behavior changed between surefire versions. This > caused all kinds of confusion for developers at my company, they > needed > the latest version of testng to support some functionality, but they > had > to use the latest surefire to use the latest testng and all of a > sudden > the output completely disappeared. The frustrating part is the maven > developers who worked on surefire claimed it was because of the way > testng worked and that there was nothing they could do about it. With > very little effort, by reading the TestNG JavaDoc and looking at the > surefire code to see that they simply didn't implement the methods > that > would have kept the behavior the same. > > This frustrates me and everyone at my company to no end. Slowly, but > surely Maven and the ASF are being looked at as software lacking in > quality, both within my company and in the Java community as well, as > top respected people in the community (who shall remain nameless in > this > post) "rant" about the errors with maven implementation quite often > and > speak about how the concept is good, but the implementation has been > anything but good and this leads to other conclusions about the way > ASF > and the Maven project are being run as a whole. > > This is most unfortunate. > > This has turn into a "rant" from me, but I think it is worthwhile to > have the maven developers hear critical feedback from time to tome. > > -----Original Message----- > From: P'Simer, Dana (Matrix) [mailto:Dana.P'[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:39 AM > To: Maven Users List; Maven Developers List > Subject: RE: surefire and testng integration issues with > surefire-2.4.2 > > I have recently been dealing with a similar issue. I wanted Junit > style > reports and did not want to use ant run to run the JunitConverter > task, > so I added reportng as a test scoped dependency and configured a > listener. > > As an interim solution, you could write a listener that does what you > want. It could just be in your src/test/java dir as classes there > will > be available to TestNG when it is running so there is no need to > create > a separate jar, unless you want to. To configure it you would do > something like this: > > ... > <plugin> > <artifactId>maven-surefire-plugin</artifactId> > ... > <configuration> > ... > <properties> > <name>listener</name> > <value>x.y.z.MyNiftyProgressOutputter</value> > </properties> > ... > </configuration> > ... > </plugin> > ... > > The listener properties's value can be a comma separated list of > classes > so if you have more than one, you can do that. > > Good Luck, > > Dana H. P'Simer > Dana.P'[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Chaffee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 5:32 AM > To: Maven Developers List > Cc: Maven Users List > Subject: surefire and testng integration issues with surefire-2.4.2 > > I brought this up in the past the maven guys were adamant that they > were > not able to get per test information to output on the console unless > testng changed. I felt all along that this was not correct and I > finally had a chance to look into it. Surefire could simply > register a > listener to get call backs during the execution and could output the > results. TestNG does support this functionality with the > ITestListener. > For example, onStart() will give the start of running a particular > class > configuration and test methods and onFinish() will be called after all > of the configuration and test methods have been run. I took a look at > the Surefire code and there is a TestNGReporter that does implement > the > ITestListener, but it does not implement these methods, they are all > no-ops. So, it seems like these could be implemented and then we > could > see progress output on the console. > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Thanks, Jason ---------------------------------------------------------- Jason van Zyl Founder, Apache Maven jason at sonatype dot com ---------------------------------------------------------- We know what we are, but know not what we may be. -- Shakespeare --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
