Sorry, wrong message date at the end, should read 2007-07-04 "Jan Sax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef in bericht news:... > Hi Eike, > > "Eike Rathke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> You're mixing up two different things: ODF file format and UI >> representation. >> > > No. I'm talking only and specificly about DEFAULT UI representation in any > product developed not strictly for personal use, but jointly (and > heavily!) for Data Interchange as well; and thát's what we are talking > about when it comes to Calc. > Since ISO 8601 formatting has been universally and globally agreed upon > already about half a century ago: in ANY localized version of whatever UI, > only THAT format should be presented as "THE" BASIC default representation > format. > For decades to come, so called "localized formats" (see below) might still > be understood within smaller communities (e.g. nationally), but might > cause a lot of problems when transferred outside the borders of such > communities. The world doesn't stop to exist any more at such borders. > That's why a vast majority of right-minded people (science, education, > industry, government) strongly have been advocating a fast universal turn > around to ISO 8601 format in education and everyday use for everybody all > over the world. > (Of course: what a user would change that default representation to > afterwards, or what specific format to be used in the context of documents > made for private or restricted group use, always is strictly up to that > user to decide. Thus, OPTIONS for obsolete formats should stay available.) > >> Why? Most users expect to see and edit in the format they're used to, >> which still is their localized format. >> > > Yes and No. > Yes. But giving in to that kind of "convenience", one would go wrong; one > should NEVER give in on that level. Because then, one would do nothing to > HELP people turn around to accept and implement any Standard, Rule, Law or > whatever. On the contrary, one deliberately would ruin a lot of precious > effort. Not being a comercially driven community, the Open Community, and > especially developers in that Community, should realize that certain > educational obligations towards general community (i.e. not only the Open > Community itself) do exist, and thus a number of "less convenient" > principles should prevail over the need for optional obsolete formats. > No. Formally, all-numeric "localized formats" don't exist at all any more, > and have not been existing any more for the past half a century. The only > valid formats existing are ISO 8601 representation and (of course: then > localized because of language dependency) full date with month NAMED. If > they don't know that already, local users should be made aware of that > fact: see Yes. > (That's why I suggested for ALL general and localized formatting: at least > in the Formula bar, NEVER show anything else but format "yyyy-mm-dd".) > >> You might want to discuss this in-depth with the User Experience team >> though. >> > > Only if still necessary, I would. As if still necessary, I would also > discuss it with developers as well. But I think developers already should > have been very aware of this issue for a number of decades, as the UEteam > should have since the very start of the OO/Calc project. That's why I > addressed my original message to everybody who might start feeling > concerned after the issue being brouhgt to attention clearly. > (In case anybody would like to discuss this issue or specific details with > me outside this Questions forum: you're welcome.) > > All this on your mind now, please think again about significance and > impact of suggestions in my original message dated 2007-07-02 and > additional info dated 2007-04-24. > Regards, > Jan > > > > "Eike Rathke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef in bericht > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Hi Jan, >> >> On Wednesday, 2007-07-04 02:03:29 +0200, Jan Sax wrote: >> >>> But in my opinion, that reproach would implicate that OO would have to >>> behave better than OOXML as far as ISO 8601 is concerned. If that would >>> be >>> true, I fail to understand why ISO 8601 complete extended date >>> representation isn't DEFAULT in all OOo general and local versions. >> >> You're mixing up two different things: ODF file format and UI >> representation. In ODF the date/time values _are_ stored in ISO 8601 >> format. How they are represented to the user depends on the locale she >> works in and the number (date) format assigned to display the value. >> >>> Of course, any user should be able to change CELL level format to >>> localized >>> date format representation. But basically, the ONLY correct formula bar >>> representation should ALWAYS be according to ISO 8601 complete extended >>> format. >> >> Why? Most users expect to see and edit in the format they're used to, >> which still is their localized format. You might want to discuss this >> in-depth with the User Experience team though. >> >>> As should be the DEFAULT cell format in any localized OO version >>> BEFORE intentionally applying a localized format. For unambiguous data: >>> the >>> latter only to be chosen if one is sure that ones data never would cross >>> national boundaries. >> >> The data is unambiguous, as stored in an unambiguous ISO 8601 format. >> For unambiguous display it usually is sufficient to not assign any >> locale specific date format, the default display format chosen then >> simply is that of the system the user works on or of the default locale >> chosen in the application under Tools -> Options -> Language Settings. >> >> Eike >> >> -- >> OOo/SO Calc core developer. Number formatter stricken i18n >> transpositionizer. >> OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS >> Please don't send personal mail to this [EMAIL PROTECTED] account, which I >> use >> for >> mailing lists only and don't read from outside Sun. Use [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Thanks. > > > > > >
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