-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chris,
On 11/3/2014 1:33 PM, Christopher Schultz wrote: > Vince, > > On 11/3/14 4:12 PM, vince.w...@thomsonreuters.com wrote: >> Even Tomcat newbies have to do real work that will find its way >> to a real server. > >> Either of the benefits you described as a) and b) mean >> CATALINA_HOME and CATALINA_BASE need to be separate on a real >> server. > >> I would rather get it straight from the outset rather than mess >> about with a configuration that is going nowhere. > > Separating a unified Tomcat deployment into CATALINA_HOME and > CATALINA_BASE is pretty trivial. Your configuration isn't "going > nowhere". > > Do you know what's worse than a simple configuration to start that > can grow into a complex one? One that is so complex you can't even > get started. Have you ever configured Weblogic? There is (or was, > back in circa 2001 when I had the misfortune of working on that > platform) no such thing as "unzip and run bin/startup.sh to launch > the server". No, you basically had to go and get trained (at a high > cost, by corporate trainers, of course) to do anything at all with > the darned thing. > Other application servers are equally unpleasant in my experience. > If you want to talk about a configuration that is going nowhere, > anything that is automatically done by Eclipse, NetBeans, etc. is > not going anywhere. By default, NetBeans does absolutely nothing to change the Tomcat configuration. Even if you decide to use a separate CATALINA_HOME and CATALINA_BASE, NetBeans follows the model detailed in RUNNING.txt. > >> NetBeans separates out CATALINA_HOME and CATALINA_BASE, either >> automatically making its own decisions about the content of >> CATALINA_BASE or manually by allowing you to specify your own >> hand crafted directory. > >> I just made the switch from letting NetBeans populate >> CATALINA_BASE, to doing it myself. Naturally I want to avoid >> having the same files appear in both directories so I went for >> minimal content. > >> How much easier it would be if the Tomcat distribution had the >> correct separation build in. > > It would be harder for newbies and no real benefit to experts. > > Let me show you the difference in complexity between deploying > Tomcat with a unified versus split configuration: > > Unified ------- > > $ wget http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $ tar xzf > http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $ > tomcat-x.y.z/bin/startup.sh > > Woot! > > Separated --------- $ wget http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz > $ tar xzf http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $ mkdir -p > my-tomcat-base/conf $ mkdir -p my-tomcat-base/log $ mkdir -p > my-tomcat-base/work $ mkdir -p my-tomcat-base/temp $ mkdir -p > my-tomcat-base/webapps $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/conf/server.xml > my-tomcat-base/conf $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/conf/web.xml > my-tomcat-base/conf (the above step may not actually be necessary) > $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/webapps/ROOT my-tomcat-base/webapps $ export > CATALINA_HOME=`pwd`/tomcat-x.y.z $ export > CATALINA_BASE=`pwd`/my-tomcat-base $ $CATALINA_HOME/bin/startup.sh > > Done. > This is not so bad for a person used to the command line, but getting a developer on any platform to do this is going to be a challenge. If that developer is only familiar with Windows or the Macintosh at a user level, you've placed an almost insurmountable burden in getting Tomcat to run. > So, that's not all that complicated when you think about it, but > to ask someone who knows nothing about a command-line, working > effectively in an operating system, etc. and only knows about > programming in Java -- maybe only servlet programming in Java -- > to configure the server in the split case is confusing as all > hell. > +1 > Anyone downloading a ZIP or tar archive containing a Tomcat > installation would be confused if the archive contained not one > but two top-level directories. Also, it would overwrite your > split-configuration if you unpacked that archive in the same > directory as when you first started. > > An installer program would have to explain what in the world the > split configuration was. Have you ever tried to tell someone how to > set up their email? POP versus IMAP? Most users have absolutely no > idea what that is, and mail programs give no clue as to which one > to choose. The same would be true of CATALINA_HOME versus > CATALINA_BASE. (Besides, I truly doubt that any expert system > administrators are using the Tomcat Windows Installer to > install/upgrade their systems. Maybe I'm wrong, but then again I > can't imagine running a Windows server in production. I value my > sleep and prefer to build new things instead of holding together > configurations with chewing gum and duct tape. Oh, and rebooting > all the time.) > I (sadly) run a few Windows servers in production. I've not tried CATALINA_HOME / CATALINA_BASE in conjunction with the service install, since those systems are quite static. However, even updating Java on those systems is a bit of a pain. Rebooting is also not nice for reliability / availability numbers. > Anyhow, we can debate this all you want, but I will be -0 or even > -1 to a default split-configuration of Tomcat unless someone has a > really good idea for how to make it make sense to anyone on their > first-touch. > If I was a voting member, I would definitely be -1 for this change. It makes the default use case (get up and running quickly) much more difficult, and provides no advantage for those people who do make use of CATALINA_HOME / CATALINA_BASE. Maybe a step-by-step Wiki article is in order. > -chris . . . just my (put support hat on) two cents worth /mde/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJUV/6jAAoJEEFGbsYNeTwtsA8H/j1ULVdRaNDJukRP5G7JJpz8 b/WqnbzFiSPGNIOacZTE+xIzf9lnatbj6pGfxrlPzy6KvoP+tsBYk5wAwxAO285R 4+BEBOmDU29J2kcAg4zWw6mTF/qq8gSLu0CkiodwehFQhA5qbADoPX1HlE4JEYoP WMRKjnO+nyy4Ah/h45Tq0t/L2Ny3Thb/IwRuIGQheRrHPOQhRnSZFppvpH1bSjjW Vh7m31Hk5LYnKGAQ0M2fDAcmuAkU/oyei7GjyWU3VKb8nVQufqSJUxjkNrNJz58s 5ZgmVL/GubXzHkdJ9mIBe/KdSRM3CLHCaTLfeW8P5fGbtjDsKUzJDJmzuLLDXDQ= =pdNJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
