Hi, the solution I've described is javascript based and runs on client-side. >From what I know, the component-based solution, which you propose, would require to have url-friendly conversion component usable in java and not as javascript code. Am I right?
On 21 April 2017 at 15:28, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> wrote: > Hi Miroslav, > > > On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda <miroslav.gala...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Hi, let me enter into this conversion. > > Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics > (or > > accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have > > url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name used > > in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from > > xwiki community till today. > > > > I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating > > url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of > the > > page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably > page > > name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some > > modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process. The > > modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit > > event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with the > > one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this javascript > > based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/. > > I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ and > > Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation. > > > > It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so that > > everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It is > > also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about > > entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url look > > ugly. > > That looks very nice! > > One way forward I could think about: > * We provide some Create script service to return a URL-friendly string. > We introduce a component role for this. We refactor createinline.vm to use > it and to display the URL. > * You could then contribute your code as an extension that we make > available on extensions.xwiki.org for users to install > * We decide later on if we want to bundle it by default > > If we don’t agree about displaying the URL by default all the time then an > option is to introduce a UIX in createinline.vm for that. And this could be > implemented in your extension too for example or by default in XWiki > (possibly with an Admin setting). > > WDYT? > > Thanks > -Vincent > > > > > Thank you > > > > Best regards > > Miroslav Galajda > > > > On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> wrote: > > > >> > >>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea < > >> mariusdumitru.flo...@xwiki.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Caty, > >>>> > >>>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > vali...@gmail.com > >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Let's see what variants we have: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead. > >>>>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name > and > >>>>> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title", > will > >>>> not > >>>>> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still > have > >>>>> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces. > >>>>> > >>>>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of > "Name". > >>>> For > >>>>> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product > for > >>>> now, > >>>> > >>>> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the > >> product > >>>> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)? > >>>> > >>>>> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some > >>>> translations) > >>>>> to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change > >> the > >>>>> translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users > will > >>>>> enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title). > >>>>> > >>>>> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and > >> change > >>>>> the title manually. > >>>> > >>>> This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page > you’re > >>>> offered the ability to change the title after you click Create. > >>>> > >>>>> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to > >>>>> autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use > >>>> case > >>>>> you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom, > >> since > >>>>> you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc. > >>>>> > >>>>> 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and > >>>> need > >>>>> for explanations. > >>>> > >>>> This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) > What > >>>> we suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title. > >>>> > >>>> Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue > to > >>>> let the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s > done > >> in > >>>> AWM. And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the > >> URL > >>>> (it would change the page name). > >>>> > >>>>> That's why we display these options just for advanced and > >>>>> long-time users of XWiki, since they are used to the concepts. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Yes but URLs don't need an advanced user to understand the concept > and I > >>>> agree with Vishal that we’re now causing a very large number of pages > to > >>>> have %25 in their URLs by default which is quite bad… Of course > someone > >> can > >>>> spend their time monitoring what users are doing and renaming pages > >>>> thereafter or educate their users to do that but we’re not helping and > >>>> we’re making it difficult. > >>>> > >>> > >>> If your web site is not in English then you're forced to use special > >>> characters like diacritics which makes it hard to avoid URL encoded > >>> characters (the browser location bar displays the URL nicely but if you > >>> copy the URL the result is not nice). > >> > >> Agreed. So I’d say it’s even more important to allow the user to be able > >> to easily view and change the resulting URL when they’re not in English. > >> > >> Thanks > >> -Vincent > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> ----- > >>>>> > >>>>> IMO what you are describing is advanced user behavior. Normal users > >> don't > >>>>> generally care about their URLs and SEO. > >>>> > >>>> I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it) > that a > >>>> good number of our users care about the generated URLs. > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Also I think that simple users may care about URL without being > advanced > >>>> users. Making them advanced users will expose them to a lot more > >> complexity > >>>> than they need to know. > >>>> > >>>>> But the beauty of XWiki is that > >>>>> you can customize it locally to perfectly match your needs. > >>>> > >>>> That’s not exactly true (and it’s far from being easy, just check > >>>> createinline.vm): It means overriding large portions of vm code and > >> having > >>>> to do manual merges whenever you upgrade. A major PITA. > >>>> > >>>>> Vincent mentioned something about AWM. I don't see much difference > from > >>>> the > >>>>> Create Page. We generate the names from title here too. We display > them > >>>> in > >>>>> the breadcrumb, but in a more simple way. Displaying the > >>>> "localhost"/server > >>>>> part is not simple user behavior. AWM is more complex. > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- > >>>>> > >>>>> So I would not change anything on the product side, since I believe > >> these > >>>>> should be solved as custom changes for your instance. > >>>>> We want to encourage users to use page titles (with spaces in them > >> since > >>>>> they are more readable and supported), while we are preserving the > page > >>>>> name behavior for advances users (but we don't enforce it). > >>>> > >>>> I don’t agree with this sentence: We definitely don’t want to > encourage > >>>> users to use titles in URLs. > >>>> > >>>>> If users made > >>>>> mistakes they can always change the title or rename the page. > >>>>> On the product side the only change I would like us to do is using > the > >>>> URL > >>>>> naming, but this was debated in the past and dropped for Vincent's > >>>> reasons. > >>>> > >>>> What reasons, I don’t remember a discussion about using URL name > instead > >>>> of page name? > >>>> > >>>> So our main disagreement is that I consider that favouring encoded > >>>> characters in URLs is not a good thing while you think it’s not a > large > >>>> enough problem to do something about it. > >>>> > >>>> Would it make our UI too complex to use for simple users if we were > >>>> showing a URL and the ability to change the last part of it? IMO > what’s > >>>> complex is when we have Page name and Page Title. But I don’t feel > >> there’d > >>>> be confusion between URL and Page title. > >>>> > >>>> What do others think? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks > >>>> -Vincent > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> Caty > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net > > > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2017, at 22:51, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Vishal, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ok, I misunderstood you in your first email. I understood the > >> opposite. > >>>>>> I thought you were complaining that have 2 notions (page name + page > >>>> title) > >>>>>> was confusing but it’s actually the opposite! What you find > confusing > >> is > >>>>>> the fact that it’s not easy for your users to set both the page name > >> and > >>>>>> page titles! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It’s funny (or not :)) since this is exactly what we had in past > >>>>>> versions of XWiki and we had several complaints that it was > confusing > >> to > >>>>>> have the 2 notions and this is why he hid the page name only for > >>>> advanced > >>>>>> users. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Actually, if I remember well, what we were doing was to ask for the > >> page > >>>>>> name and we were setting the title to the same as the page name by > >>>> default > >>>>>> and then the user could edit the title before saving the page. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We’ve now done the opposite (user deciding on the title and page > name > >>>>>> being derived from it) but leading to the issue you’re raising about > >> URL > >>>>>> SEO… > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>> -Vincent > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> See below. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2017, at 14:20, Vishal <thewikinote...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks Vincent for your thorough reply.. > >>>>>>>> You guessed it right. We intend to have clean and short urls for > SEO > >>>>>>>> reasons. > >>>>>>>> Current scheme creates two problems: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1) The Page name is fetched automatically from the Title. Often > the > >>>>>> titles > >>>>>>>> have spaces which translate as *percent characters *in url which > >> makes > >>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> somewhat unclean :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Indeed you’re right. By hiding the page name we’re now incitating > to > >>>>>> have longer URLs and encoded characters showing up in URLs which is > >> not > >>>>>> nice I agree. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Maybe one solution is to do something similar to what we do in AWM, > >>>> i.e. > >>>>>> generate automatically the URL from the title entered by the user > and > >>>> show > >>>>>> the resulting URL to the user and give the user the opportunity to > >>>> change > >>>>>> the URL. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> See http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Extension/ > >>>>>> App%20Within%20Minutes%20Application/AppWithinMinutes-Step1.png > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2) Secondly, to have the shorter url, we use only the short forms > of > >>>>>>>> complete title. > >>>>>>>> Ex. For title 'Pune University' we use name PU. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times! That was > >> in a > >>>>>> previous job where my company and KPIT Cummins were partners. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Otherwise in this hierarchy of pages, the url would be much > longer. > >>>>>>>> Ex. We have page 'Electronics and Telecommunications' branch under > >>>> page > >>>>>>>> 'Pune University'. We should not have such a long url. Instead > here > >> we > >>>>>> need > >>>>>>>> PU/ENTC or Pune-University/ENTC > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To avoid all this, what we currently do: > >>>>>>>> 1) On create page dialog, use PU as title.. This will create url > as > >>>> PU. > >>>>>>>> If full name is used here as title, we need to use - instead of > >> spaces > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> avoid percent characters in url. > >>>>>>>> 2) While in edit mode, change the title back to Pune University. > >>>> Remove > >>>>>> any > >>>>>>>> - characters to make title clean. > >>>>>>>> This is where confusion creeps in. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If these two terms create confusion, why I need to show them both: > >>>>>>>> I guess the *confusion is due to term Name*. It doesn't reflect > >> actual > >>>>>> usage > >>>>>>>> of the term. URL or weblink or link or web address would be more > apt > >>>>>> terms > >>>>>>>> to use to instead of Name. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regarding Page name vs Page URL. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> A bit of history: The reason we used page name and not page URL > >>>>>> originally is because what the user is creating is a document in the > >>>>>> database and initially it was called Document Name. Since that was a > >> bit > >>>>>> confusing for users, we had decided to call it Page Name. It just > >>>> happened > >>>>>> that the URL used was directly derived from the document/page name. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In practice the 3 concepts could have different values: > >>>>>>> * a value for the document’s name in the DB > >>>>>>> * another value for the document’s title > >>>>>>> * yet another value used in the URL. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We’ve had discussions so that we could let the user provide shorter > >>>> URLs > >>>>>> for pages in the future. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Now for the time being and since we don’t have this ATM, I think I > >>>> agree > >>>>>> with you that we could decide to display to the user the URL that > will > >>>> be > >>>>>> generated (the encoded URL) and allow the user to change it. > >> Internally > >>>> the > >>>>>> user would change the document name. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> My users can differentiate between Title and URL. But the whole > >>>>>> procedure we > >>>>>>>> follow is certainly not understandable by all. And we definitely > >> need > >>>> to > >>>>>>>> follow this whole long procedure, just to have short and clean > urls. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yes, if you’re asking your users to care about the URLs that get > >>>>>> generated, right now they need to be advanced users to be able to > edit > >>>> the > >>>>>> page name in the Create Page UI (since changing the title afterwards > >> is > >>>> too > >>>>>> cumbersome). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So, by showing both fields at the first place itself, I would like > >> to > >>>>>>>> shorten the procedure and url length. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I’m in agreement with you. Let’s see what others think. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks for this interesting discussion! > >>>>>>> -Vincent > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> View this message in context: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble. > >>>>>> com/Page-Title-and-Name-confusion-tp7603546p7603551.html > >>>>>>>> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >> > >> > >
