hold up.

first, yeah Drupal is at its core a framework.  Not a CMS.
It naturally can be used as a CMS.  It can also be used as a singler person
blog.
In fact, there is a verion of Drupal with fat trimmed off to be ONLY a
blogging engine.
I have used Drupal for many different purposes.  It has worked very well as
an intranet environment for companies I have worked for and with.
I use it at SpreadTheMedia.org as a basic blog.
I've used it to be a CMS for organizations.
The only time I was involved with Drupal for what turned out to be a
high-traffic site, was Ourmedia.org.
I am very well aware of Ourmedia's shortcomings but can tell you that most
of the problems were a result of the Drupal Core but more so with modules
and temporary "throw-away" glue code as well as hardware issues.
I have heard both positive and negative case studies of larger-scale
deployments involving Drupal.

With that said, Drupal Core improves with every release.

To say it should be gone is really short-sighted and.... well i will just
leave it at that.

Regarding Media RSS... as I already pointed out, generated media rss is not
hard to do.  it's especially not as hard as some are making it out to be.
The issue is.... Publishers have not needed it in this space... or at least
they didnt need it badly enough thus far.  But its benefit is made more
clear as everyone evolves here.
This was known by those involved in creating the spec.  Things like Media
RSS take time to penetrate.  No surprise there.  Media RSS didnt fail
anyone.  It's need is coming from an organic evolution of publishers.... and
it was initially more often used by developers.  Again, no shock at all.  If
Apple decided to use Media RSS instead of there stupid namespace, then we
would have a different story now wouldnt we?

Since Wordpress is most everyones choice for blogging engines... and if
users truly needed Media RSS in the past, then we would have had at the very
least a recipe to do it... if not an actual plugin or addition to the core.
In Wordpress, RSS is generated and output using templates.  So, you could
create a template by referring to the Media RSS spec.  To inject logical
data/content into these Media RSS feeds, you could just add custom fields to
Wordpress that are made available during posting.  The values are variables
that can be added to the Media RSS template.

I DONT use Wordpress hardley ever.... only on multi-userblogs like
evilvlog.  I dont develop anything for Wordpress.  I dont know much about
Wordpress.  But this aforementioned approach, albeit not the best, would get
the job done and wouldnt take a $1000 to do it either.  Why hasnt it been
done?  Not because Media RSS has failed anyone... That much I know.

Else, as I also mentioned, there must be tens to hundreds of XML/RSS
generator scripts out there that can be used to output Media RSS based on
Mysql database or other sources of data.
Many I am sure are free.  That is an approach that can be taken to add
companion functionality to ANY CMS or blogging engine.

And last.... Feedburner.... why hasnt feedburner added media RSS already?
Maybe because not enough people have demanded it?  Could that be it?  ;)

Sull

On 12/6/06, Mike Meiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   On 12/6/06, Pete Prodoehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <raster%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Mike Meiser wrote:
> > > It's funny my gut reaction was that we had an imposter posting under
> > Mike
> > > Hudack, I've never known him to be so blunt and harsh.
> > >
> > > But then I've got to say, as a non-programmer... drupal, plone and the
> > whole
> > > CMS thing... are atrocities that developers foist onto everyday
> users...
> > "oh
> > > but look at how great it is, and what you can do with it!"
> >
> > How do they foist them on you? Is someone forcing you to install and use
> > a CMS? Years ago everyone thought that a CMS was a solution to a
> > successful and easy to use web site, but it's just a small piece of the
> > puzzle.
>
> I could go trough dozens of cases, but here's one.
>
> I needed a photo gallery... what was recommended was plone. I gave it more
> than a go... thank god flickr came along.
>
> Truth is people (always developers) have recommend it for all sorts of
> collaborative projects, I'm not going to name those projects of which
> there
> have been a half dozen to a dozen over the last couple years because
> they're
> mostly still sore points.
>
> I look at it this way. I was there and particcipated in the development of
> MediaRSS... and mediaRSS is GREAT stuff, but we overlooked one thing.
> MediaRSS didn't empower the average blogger, it empowered the feedburner,
> blip, and all manner of developers. The problem is most bloggers don't
> have
> access to their RSS... they don't know how to code RSS, nor how to dig
> into
> the underlying layers of applications like Drupal, Moveable type or
> wrodpress. You cannot specify MediaRSS IN the blog post.
>
> Therefore media RSS does not bring the power all the way to the people.
>
> Which is precisely what everyone is talking about right now.
>
> We're working on a microstandard for marking up content symantically in
> blog
> posts so bloggers can take more control over identifying important
> elements
> of a post that can be read and translated directly into a higher level
> language like MediaRSS.
>
> Stuff like specifying alternate video and audio formats... identifying
> your
> thumbnails so they can be used in databases... specifying the location a
> video was shot (a standard for this has already been developed), and
> specifying a license format on the individual video, which also already
> exists.
>
> This will hopefully be simple enough to empower the average blogger,
> vlogger, podcaster, phtooblogger to make better use out of their blog just
> like other standards like RelTag... which allowed them to tag their posts.
>
> Also, of great importance, hopefully it will improve the visibility and
> improve the uptake of these technologies in blogging platforms like
> Moveable
> type, blogger, and wordpress. So people don't have to know so much about
> markup language and what it means to semantically identify the elements of
> your blog post.
>
> So... in summary. Drupal failed to get the power to the people.
>
> In stead it got about 90% of the way there and then got really really
> complex and kludgey.
>
> Kludge being a term used by naval people... to describe things that made
> such a sound when they went over the side and into the drink.
>
> That said, failure is important... it teachs great lessons, I know I've
> learned a lot from drupal, even just from this email.
>
> Quite simply put there is no coincidence that a discussion of mediaRSS
> desended into a discussion of the failure of drupal. In many ways mediaRSS
> hasn't been as successful as it could be because the media plaforms and
> blogging platforms have failed to allow people to really get a hold of
> mediaRSS... of which is most obvious with Drupal, but also Moveabletype,
> Wordpress and especially blogger.
>
> There has been a missing link or a week link in the process of collecting
> and translating metadata through blogs posts. Hopefully this new media
> microstandard will change this tremendously.
>
> > I cannot TELL you how many times I've had someone foist drupal, plone or
> > > some other CMS on me when all I needed was a PBwiki or a wordpress
> > install.
> >
> > Some people/organizations need a hell of a lot more than a wiki or
> > blogging software...
>
> I like to keep it real, keep it as close to the table as possible... it is
> easier to start with a shovel and realize you need a back hoe than to buy
> a
> backhoe and realize you only needed a shovel... or to just have the
> project
> fail because the 2-3 core people developing the project don't know how to
> use a backhoe.
>
> > 99.99% of people don't want or need a big swiss army knife of a CMS
> > system.
> > > They need the single tool they need and that's it.
> >
> > I guess I fit into that 0.01%...
>
> I meant you no insult. But absolutely, you are a programmer aren't you. :)
>
> 99.999% of people are not programmers, don't know how to configure drupal,
> don't know have the skills necissary. So yes I suspect you are that .01%,
> and I bear you absolutely no ill will. I just ask you to remember that on
> projects requiring CMS, that probably the majority of the people will
> never
> look under the hood, know how to change the oil, or any of that jaz. Their
> task is not building and maintaining the system for collaboration. Their
> object is the collaboration itself. You could no sooner ask them to deal
> with the eccentricities of something like Drupal then you could ask them
> to
> get out of a car and fix a 3 foot pot hole in the road, or put up a stop
> sign that has fallen over. It's really that backwards for people.
>
> I'm a designer... I sit forever somewhere between complete geekdom, and
> trying to make things as simple and yet as powerful as a hammer for the
> everyday user. I will openly admit to being on BOTH sides of the line...
> recommending things that are far too technical for my clients... and been
> on
> the recieving end. So... I say everything I'm saying here with tremendous
> amounts of respect and even love for all those in this space.
>
> On the one we've got content people... they're completely obsessed with
> the
> meat and content of what they're doing... what happens in the video,
> communication.
>
> And on the other we've got the people who're developing the very systems
> which make their content fly.
>
> It's a beautiful thing. Mutual respect. We need to keep working this space
> between.
>
> That's exactly what this media microstandard conversation is about, and
> this
> drupal discussion.
>
> We've got to get the power of the tech all the way into the hands of the
> the
> person who's speaking on the camera. If that person speaking isn't in
> power... if they're unable to do what they need to with the tech then it
> fails not just them but all off us.
>
> And that's precisely how this conversation started. Jay basically said
> this
> mediaRSS thing looks like a great thing, but how can my guys, the guys
> making the videos use it.
>
> Bottom line... they can't. Not without some big improvements.
>
> > It's absolutely nothing persoanl with drupal... I actually want drupal
> and
> > > plone and all those other great CMS to succeed... but unless you have
> a
> > > developer on call 24x7 drupal is not for the every user.
> >
> > And some people do have a developer on-call 24x7... I've worked with a
> > lot of companies that would have probably been better off hiring someone
> > to install, customize & support Drupal, but instead either had one guy
> > build something in-house that did 10% of what Drupal did (and had just
> > one person knowing the undocumented code) or spent over a million on
> > some portal solution that everyone constantly complains about.
>
> Yeah, some people do have 24x7 developers on staff, but this whole thing
> right here is extremely grass roots, you won't find to many of those
> content
> people who have a developer on call on this group.
>
> But yeah, I totally here you. I'm all for open source packages because of
> their open standards and interoperability, preaching to the choir. The
> question is purely one of practicality. You can't argue with the
> practicality of a wordpress blog or a pbwiki.
>
> No frills... or few frills simplicity and practicality.
>
> Peace Pete,
>
> -Mike
> mefeedia.com
> mmeiser.com/blog
>
> Pete
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>



-- 
Sull
http://vlogdir.com (a project)
http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog)
http://interdigitate.com (otherly)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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