Because if ever library who bought a VHS just makes their own DVD then the actual owner has no incentive to make one because the market has been fatally compromised. If a distributor is going to invest tens of thousands of dollars and 300 major libraries already made their own DVD copies exactly how will they be able to afford to do that?. Please don't tell me all those libraries will instantly buy the legit DVD, because that is simply not true. You might Gary , but you know damn well others will not.
No offense but you keep changing positions. Yesterday it was all VHS copies are basically at risk so you can make DVD copies of anything you have on VHS. Today it was the only way to "preserve" rare items and now it is anything I need to keep a title available and trust me to buy another copy when you invest those thousands in it. Again the vast majority of these titles are NOT rare, they just have not been released on DVD. At least save the pretense that this is about preservation or rarity, it is about A. getting a title in a convenient format. B. Not having to limit access to "gasp horrors" the library when you do make a copy. The title remains available for viewing and research, but the institution does not get a free upgrade to a circulating copy . As I keep asking why is this so hard to explain. I really doubt any library is digitizing all their books that are rare and out of print and circulating them so entire classes can use one copy of a copy. Do you think that might hurt publishers? On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 1:03 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote: > Wait...I'm not getting something here: > > 1. A title is no longer available for purchase in any format > 2. The library owns an earlier-purchased copy on tape > 3. The tape is in physical risk of disintegration (or is in rough shape > currently) > 4. The library makes a 108 replacement copy. > > HOW will this be "the end of educational distributors?????" > > If I could buy a goddamn replacement, I would. I can't. So copy I will > (and legally under current copyright allowances) > > Gary > > > > > Except a ton of stuff is out of distribution and the rights holder can't > > afford to upgrade. If you give libraries carte blanche to make DVDs of > any > > out of print video and that does seem to be what you are suggesting, it > > will > > be the end of educational distributors. > > The title that started this seemed like a run of the mill out of print > > title > > not some super rare one of kind needs to be preserved. I am fine with a > > project to identify and preserve genuinely rare and unique material, but > > to > > say anything that is not available on DVD entitles a library that owns a > > VHS > > to digitize it and stream or use it classes is entirely different. > > Honestly > > Gary I am not even sure what your position is. If a studio released a > > title and sold 5,000 copies 15 years ago, it has the film in 35mm, it > runs > > on TV , but the studio has not released it on DVD is it OK for a library > > to > > take that inconvenient video and make a DVD? Suppose a company or > > filmmaker > > you have done business with for years says no they don't have the title > > you > > bought in VHS on DVD because it will cost them too much money, though > > perhaps they might later, you get to digitize that VHS in the meantime? > > THIS is what is happening all over. This is NOT a case of trying to > "save" > > rare films, it is libraries and more precisely professors not being able > > to > > access a film when and in what format they want. I seriously doubt > > Marilyn's copy of MACHINE THAT CHANGED THE WORLD is one of kind and in > > need > > of preservation. It just has not been released in DVD and the prof does > > not > > want to use it in VHS so comes up with a bogus claim that a 1992 film is > > PD. > > > > I know I am in one of my hostile moods today, but I do think a whole lot > > of > > institutions (driven by profs and IT people) are acting like Asian > > bootleggers. Independent filmmakers and distributors in particular looked > > to > > libraries to support them and protect their rights not to copy their > > material without permission. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:54 AM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote: > > > >> Jessica... > >> > >> There's a HELL of a lot of difference between freely digitizing and > >> delivering in-distribution content (under the banner of 107 or other > >> rationales) and invoking 108 to save content that is out-of-distribution > >> and at risk of going away for good. Come on, J. You KNOW these two > >> things have NOTHING to do with each other whatsoever in terms of market > >> impact. > >> > >> Gary > >> > >> > >> > >> > No what it effectively says is you don't get the right to make a free > >> copy > >> > or upgrade. It is pretty clear it was written for preservation and > >> > research > >> > not for circulation which would include classroom use. If you could > >> just > >> > digitize everything ( which to be honest is happening in many > >> unscrupulous > >> > institutions) there would be no reason or ability for rights holders > >> to > >> > actually make decent digital copies. As Dennis has pointed out > >> endlessly > >> > it > >> > costs a lot of money to make a good digital copy. I am a little > >> grumpier > >> > than usual this morning having been informed by a producer that a > >> major > >> > university did indeed digitize everything it owned and put it on a > >> server > >> > two years ago. Classes no longer bother with VHS or DVD and in this > >> case > >> > thousands of rights holders are screwed. The educational market in > >> > particular is suffering not because the market has shrunk but because > >> many > >> > institutions are acting like Asian film pirates. > >> > > >> > On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:20 AM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Let's put it this way, Jessica: I have about 32K tapes in my > >> >> collection, > >> >> and I can confidently say that I can show significant deterioration > >> for > >> >> the majority. > >> >> > >> >> This feature of 108 is perhaps the most idiotic of them all: what it > >> >> effectively says is that you have to wait until the medium is > >> unplayable > >> >> or badly worn to save it. Makes no sense whatsoever. > >> >> > >> >> Gary > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > So you are now claiming a VHS is automatically deteriorating? This > >> is > >> >> > absurd.The VHS or whatever format is supposed to be in must be > >> >> "damaged, > >> >> > deteriorating, lost, or stolen, or if the existing format in which > >> the > >> >> > work > >> >> > is stored has become obsolete, " in order to even be considered for > >> a > >> >> > digital transfer. There was no indication whatsoever that the VHS > >> set > >> >> in > >> >> > the > >> >> > case has any of these issues. I think we have discussed in the past > >> >> that > >> >> > you > >> >> > don't get to just transfer all your VHS tapes to DVD if the title > >> is > >> >> not > >> >> > available in DVD or have you changed your mind? This is not a free > >> >> pass > >> >> > to > >> >> > upgrade to easier format because a professor wants it. > >> >> > I have 30 year old VHS copies that play better than DVDs. I am > >> >> honestly > >> >> > shocked you would take such a blase attitude to rights. You are > >> right > >> >> it > >> >> > is > >> >> > a slippery slope that you seem to have turned into Niagra Falls by > >> >> > asserting > >> >> > any VHS can be digitized and circulated throughout a campus. > >> >> > > >> >> > The reason I focused on if this item was PD was because that was > >> >> actually > >> >> > the question. To be totally honest any professor claiming it is OK > >> to > >> >> > digitize a VHS released in the 90s because it is PD is either a > >> total > >> >> > idiot > >> >> > ( which I doubt) or just trying to use any excuse to justify > >> getting a > >> >> DVD > >> >> > because again the VHS is not > >> >> > damaged just inconvenient. > >> >> > > >> >> > Might one ask if any of the lawyers involved in the Mellon project > >> >> > represent > >> >> > rights holders? Since virtually no university library is in fact > >> open > >> >> to > >> >> > the > >> >> > "public" which is requirement of 108 you might want to be careful > >> how > >> >> you > >> >> > define the phrase. It is really logical to think the restriction on > >> >> > digital > >> >> > copy made from damaged VHS was intended for Joe Smith who has never > >> >> ever > >> >> > been allowed to take anything out from a university library in the > >> >> first > >> >> > place? I think we know from the ongoing UCLA case (more on that > >> soon) > >> >> > getting opinions from only one side is not a good idea. > >> >> > > >> >> > I confess I am a more than a tad skeptical of the Mellon project. I > >> am > >> >> > pretty sure that a this is the same project for which one the major > >> >> NYU > >> >> > representatives > >> >> > told an ALA meeting that one should NOT try to contact the rights > >> >> holder > >> >> > when trying to determine the status of out of print work because > >> they > >> >> > would > >> >> > only cause trouble and want money. I know Dennis has repeatedly > >> urged > >> >> > rights holders and the academic community to work together, but > >> >> despite > >> >> > the > >> >> > claims that evil > >> >> > big studios are eating up the world I don't see much effort by the > >> >> > academic > >> >> > community to include rights holders, especially educational rights > >> >> holders > >> >> > in these discussions. You can't one hand say how much everyone > >> wants > >> >> to > >> >> > support independent filmmakers & distributors and on the other > >> say, > >> >> by > >> >> > the > >> >> > way we just made are own DVD because we didn't have the time for > >> you > >> >> to > >> >> > do > >> >> > things like get new materials for transfer, clear rights etc. > >> >> > > >> >> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 4:41 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> It doesn't have to be in the PD in order for it to qualify for > >> >> >> replacement > >> >> >> copying under Section 108, Jessica: 108 can be invoked as soon as > >> >> "the > >> >> >> library or archives has, after a reasonable effort, determined > >> that > >> >> an > >> >> >> unused replacement cannot be obtained at a fair price." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Recent discussions with colleagues at our Mellon meeting in NY > >> >> >> (including > >> >> >> lawyers)regarding the "non-circulating" issue of 108 seem to > >> indicate > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> the interpretation of 108 in this regard could be extended > >> >> considerably > >> >> >> beyond the library building. The matter really boils down to the > >> >> >> interpretation of "public" (any such copy or phonorecord that is > >> >> >> reproduced in digital format is not made available to the public > >> in > >> >> that > >> >> >> format outside the premises of the library or archives in lawful > >> >> >> possession of such copy"). Use of 108 copies by faculty in > >> >> classrooms > >> >> >> is > >> >> >> NOT public use. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Putting this interpretation into play will, of course, depend on > >> the > >> >> >> position of legal counsel of individual institutions. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Also: the issue of what constitutes damaged or deteriorated is > >> >> really > >> >> >> slippery slope when talking about vhs and other mag media. > >> >> Basically, > >> >> >> vhs > >> >> >> tape begins to deteriorate the minute it's put in a box. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> gary handman > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I would be stunned it it were PD. I believe in order for it to > >> be > >> >> PD > >> >> >> it > >> >> >> > would could never have been copyrighted in the first place as > >> >> anything > >> >> >> > from > >> >> >> > the last 30 years or so does not require renewal. Do you have > >> link > >> >> to > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> > reference? Also the fact that is NOT out on DVD is kind of sign > >> it > >> >> is > >> >> >> NOT > >> >> >> > PD as one would imagine that if it were some enterprising > >> company > >> >> >> would > >> >> >> > put > >> >> >> > it out. The fact that is on youtube and websites could merely > >> >> indicate > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> > rights holder or holders are not very proactive but speaking > >> from > >> >> >> > experience > >> >> >> > it is hard to get this stuff down when pirate copies go up. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > If the film were PD in it's entirety ( no underlying music or > >> >> literary > >> >> >> > rights) than you could copy it, but again that seems unlikely. > >> If > >> >> it > >> >> >> is > >> >> >> > not > >> >> >> > PD you can only use the VHS copies. The section of copyright law > >> >> which > >> >> >> > "permits" making digital copies from VHS, limits this to copies > >> >> that > >> >> >> are > >> >> >> > deteriorating and said copies may not circulate, they may only > >> be > >> >> used > >> >> >> on > >> >> >> > the library premise. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Marilyn Huntley > >> >> >> > <mhunt...@hamilton.edu>wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> Hello, > >> >> >> >> I'm forwarding a question that was sent to me by a professor. > >> If > >> >> we > >> >> >> do > >> >> >> >> not > >> >> >> >> have the right to do what he's asking, can anyone give me > >> contact > >> >> >> >> information for the rights-holder? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "The Machine That Changed the World." A co-production of WGBH > >> and > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> BBC; > >> >> >> >> the 5 VHS tapes our library owns (Giant brains, Inventing the > >> >> future, > >> >> >> >> Paperback computer, Thinking machine, World at your fingertips) > >> >> were > >> >> >> >> distributed by Films for the Humanities nearly 20 years ago. > >> The > >> >> >> series > >> >> >> >> is > >> >> >> >> long since out of distribution > >> >> (*http://preview.tinyurl.com/6rlfkb* > >> >> ), > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> is available for free viewing on numerous web sites (such as * > >> >> >> >> http://preview.tinyurl.com/34pj6hh *and * > >> >> >> >> http://preview.tinyurl.com/39j4p93*, and YouTube). The > Internet > >> >> >> Archive > >> >> >> >> believes this is in the public domain. Should we trust them? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> First, can we make copies from our VHS tapes, and if so, are we > >> >> >> limited > >> >> >> >> to > >> >> >> >> using the DVDs within the library? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Second, would we have the right to download a video file from a > >> >> place > >> >> >> >> like > >> >> >> >> this (*http://preview.tinyurl.com/5p55fd*), and burn it onto > >> DVDs? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for any information or opinions. > >> >> >> >> Marilyn Huntley > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> -- > >> >> >> >> Marilyn B. Huntley, Staff Assistant/ Film Specialist: > >> >> >> >> Scheduling; purchases, rentals, previews; licensing & > >> copyright > >> >> >> >> A-V Services, Hamilton College, 198 College Hill Rd., Clinton, > >> NY > >> >> >> 13323 > >> >> >> >> Phone 315-859-4120; Fax 315-859-4185 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively > >> discussion > >> >> of > >> >> >> >> issues > >> >> >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, > >> acquisition,bibliographic > >> >> >> >> control, > >> >> >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > >> >> >> libraries > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as > >> an > >> >> >> >> effective > >> >> >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of > >> >> >> communication > >> >> >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers > >> >> and > >> >> >> >> distributors. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > -- > >> >> >> > Jessica Rosner > >> >> >> > Media Consultant > >> >> >> > 224-545-3897 (cell) > >> >> >> > 212-627-1785 (land line) > >> >> >> > jessicapros...@gmail.com > >> >> >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively > >> discussion > >> >> of > >> >> >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, > >> >> >> acquisition,bibliographic > >> >> >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video > >> >> formats > >> >> >> in > >> >> >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list > >> will > >> >> >> serve > >> >> >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a > >> >> >> channel > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and > >> video > >> >> >> > producers and distributors. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Gary Handman > >> >> >> Director > >> >> >> Media Resources Center > >> >> >> Moffitt Library > >> >> >> UC Berkeley > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 510-643-8566 > >> >> >> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu > >> >> >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." > >> >> >> --Francois Truffaut > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion > >> of > >> >> >> issues > >> >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > >> >> >> control, > >> >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > >> >> libraries > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an > >> >> >> effective > >> >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of > >> >> communication > >> >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers > >> and > >> >> >> distributors. > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Jessica Rosner > >> >> > Media Consultant > >> >> > 224-545-3897 (cell) > >> >> > 212-627-1785 (land line) > >> >> > jessicapros...@gmail.com > >> >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion > >> of > >> >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, > >> >> acquisition,bibliographic > >> >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video > >> formats > >> >> in > >> >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will > >> >> serve > >> >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a > >> >> channel > >> >> of > >> >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video > >> >> > producers and distributors. > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Gary Handman > >> >> Director > >> >> Media Resources Center > >> >> Moffitt Library > >> >> UC Berkeley > >> >> > >> >> 510-643-8566 > >> >> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu > >> >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC > >> >> > >> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." > >> >> --Francois Truffaut > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > >> >> issues > >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > >> >> control, > >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > >> libraries > >> >> and > >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an > >> >> effective > >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of > >> communication > >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and > >> >> distributors. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Jessica Rosner > >> > Media Consultant > >> > 224-545-3897 (cell) > >> > 212-627-1785 (land line) > >> > jessicapros...@gmail.com > >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, > >> acquisition,bibliographic > >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats > >> in > >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will > >> serve > >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a > >> channel > >> of > >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video > >> > producers and distributors. > >> > > >> > >> > >> Gary Handman > >> Director > >> Media Resources Center > >> Moffitt Library > >> UC Berkeley > >> > >> 510-643-8566 > >> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu > >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC > >> > >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." > >> --Francois Truffaut > >> > >> > >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > >> issues > >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > >> control, > >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries > >> and > >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an > >> effective > >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication > >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and > >> distributors. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Jessica Rosner > > Media Consultant > > 224-545-3897 (cell) > > 212-627-1785 (land line) > > jessicapros...@gmail.com > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve > > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel > of > > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video > > producers and distributors. > > > > > Gary Handman > Director > Media Resources Center > Moffitt Library > UC Berkeley > > 510-643-8566 > ghand...@library.berkeley.edu > http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC > > "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." > --Francois Truffaut > > > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and > distributors. > -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
