you're completely missing the point and the intent of 108, Jessica. 108
is in no way limited to rarities...it's aimed at conserving items at risk
of disintegration, regardless of how scarce, if conditions are met.
You're also misreading the Mellon project (despite my best efforts to
clarify). The project involves developing very careful best practices for
due diligence in determining the availability of items suspected of being
out of distribution.
The alternative to letting valuable,legally acquired filmd fall apart and
rot because you can't buy a replacement simply is not acceptable.
gary
> Ironically Gary that is the whole point. It is NOT archival but you
> are using a section of the copyright law to claim the right to copy
> things as preservation & archiving.
>
> I am most definitely NOT nit picking. You are asking to copy hundreds
> if not thousands of films whose rights holders are easily
> unidentifiable with a little research. If you were focusing on
> "orphans" I would have no issue but very few feature films of the last
> 50 years are "Orphans" and as you said no distinction is being made
> between them and rarer non fiction titles. For the record the "film"
> in question that elicited the " don't contact the rights holder they
> might object" from the NYU person was a French film whose rights
> holder simply had not released in the US ( in this case the material
> was actually 16mm and not all that rare in terms of real archives
> having copies) I know you mean well and care about distributors but
> too many other people including NYU don't ( I say this with regards to
> other policies of theirs which I am aware of and feel free to contact
> me off list) FYI he was directly talking about THIS project. He may
> not be the head but he is clearly involved.
>
> Again why not a project aimed at getting these films BACK in
> distribution in good copies available to all instead of ways of
> twisting copyright law to make copies that I assure you will make it
> harder and harder for them to be released. The very reason the
> language regarding a film in danger is hard to understand is that it
> was intended for actual archival preservation of very rare items, not
> taking a VHS of old Embassy release and making a DVD because the
> current rights holder can't or won't put it out. Everyone knew from
> the start VHS would not last forever so it can hardly be a shock they
> have a finite life.
>
> I believe you when you say you would buy a copy if you could but there
> are two problems with this. One is that not everyone would. There
> were probably several HUNDRED titles on the list that UCLA streamed
> which were from very old videos ( in some cases 30 years) while these
> titles had in fact been on DVD for many years apparently they could
> not be bothered to spend the extra $30 even when streaming
> illegally.Two is that there is simply no way a rights holder is going
> to believe libraries will in fact buy the "real" copy if they put one
> out. Many of them know enough now to check OCLC and why spend the
> money mastering a DVD of a film with a significant academic audience
> if 200 schools have already made their own DVD transfer?
>
>
> Again if in fact this project only means to protect very rare orphan
> items I have no problem, but since there is no distinction between one
> of 5 known copies of film put out by an artist collective in 1977 and
> Sam Fullers out of print CHINA GATE or a title that is owned by Cinema
> Guild or California Newsreel that has a defective master which would
> cost them thousands to be able fix and release something they once had
> out I doubt it.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:10 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> You're picking at nits, Jessica...and you're making me itch.
>>
>> This project is aimed at developing ways to identify portions of a
>> standing library video collection that are likely to be 1) at some
>> physical risk of deterioration or destruction 2) Not currently available
>> for purchase in any format. Again, the focus is primarily on titles
>> which
>> were initially available commercially.
>>
>> NYU, for their part, seems to be focusing on titles which are scarcely
>> held in US libraries. I'm less concerned about scarcity than materials
>> which are of heavily used or which have demonstrated historical value.
>>
>> No one is talking "archival" here.
>>
>> If the items in question were available for purchase, we'd be buying
>> them
>> as replacement. The alternative is to let the tapes crumble...something
>> that will certainly happen if we have to "work with the rights owners."
>>
>> "since the head of the project is against even contacting rights
>> holders"...who are you talking about? You got the wrong project. One
>> of
>> the main focuses of this study is to develop workflows and methods for
>> attempting to identify acquisition sources, including rights holders.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>> Well my problem is the idea that transferring a VHS to DVD constitutes
>>> any kind of "preservation" or "archiving", beyond the "preservation"
>>> of a place being able to keep a copy of something that is not
>>> intrinsically rare or special. Is every person who copies their old
>>> VHS collection to DVD an archivist? While I understand the
>>> frustration of something you use being unavailable is twisting a
>>> section of the law clearly meant for real preservation of genuinely
>>> rare materials not items that are out of print because in most cases
>>> the rights holders can't afford to put them out and of course if
>>> institutions just make copies of old VHS copies, they will never be
>>> released in a decent version. It is ironic that in trying to keep
>>> items "available" you will dramatically lesson the possibility that
>>> they will in fact become available in a real copy mastered from good
>>> materials. Not to mention that the only people who will ever see them
>>> are institutions who bought copies when the VHS ( or DVD) was
>>> originally released.
>>>
>>> You might suggest that some of this energy be put to actually working
>>> with rights holders to get these rare items actually released, however
>>> since the head of the project is against even contacting rights
>>> holders I won't hold my breath.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:40 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>> That's what is enormously idiotic about 108 (well, one of the things):
>>>> there is absolutely no adequate definition of "damaged" or "at risk."
>>>> If
>>>> we waited until the damn things were totally unplayable, how could we
>>>> preserve them. I'm basically taking the tact that virtually any tape
>>>> over
>>>> a few years old (which means almost all of them) is at some physical
>>>> risk
>>>> and has deteriorated to some extent. Bottom line is if it's on tape
>>>> and
>>>> if it can't be repurchased in any format, it's fair game in my book.
>>>>
>>>> gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What really constitutes "physical danger." Does it have to be actual
>>>>> damage to the tape, bleed through, discoloration, etc., or can it be
>>>>> the
>>>>> fact that it might just cease to exist? Is this one of those "I know
>>>>> what
>>>>> it is when I see it" definitions, or is it really much more literal
>>>>> that
>>>>> that?
>>>>>
>>>>> What would that be -- they're being disappeared.
>>>>>
>>>>> Randal Baier
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jessica Rosner" <jessicapros...@gmail.com>
>>>>> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 2:23:24 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Need your reality check, pls
>>>>>
>>>>> Well the problem there is that I know you "object" to the part that
>>>>> requires any copy not to circulate beyond the library premise and of
>>>>> course that it can't be copied merely because it is rare, but must
>>>>> also be in physical danger. I have a feeling most people won't abide
>>>>> by those parts of the law and you can't just pick and choose what
>>>>> parts of copyright law you like.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 2:11 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> We're not dealing with scarcity or uniqueness...we're dealing with
>>>>>> titles
>>>>>> that were initially available commercially, but are no available for
>>>>>> purchase in any format. Section 108 does not distinguish between
>>>>>> fiction
>>>>>> and non-fiction film. If due diligence is done to determine the
>>>>>> unavailability of a feature, and if it meets the conditions of 108
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> terms of damage/loss, and is used as specified in 108, it is
>>>>>> eligible
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> reproduction under the terms of the law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This project is attempting to develop methodologies and best
>>>>>> practices
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> identifying such materials--both fiction and non-fiction--in library
>>>>>> collections, as well as best practices for dealing with these titles
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> terms of preservation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary,
>>>>>>> I am a little confused on the goal here re feature films. It is
>>>>>>> very,
>>>>>>> very unlikely that out of print feature film is remotely rare in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> archival sense. For a variety of business or legal reasons a
>>>>>>> studio,
>>>>>>> filmmaker or in many cases foreign company has chosen not reissue
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> What would be the point of "preserving" and old VHS ( or DVD) of an
>>>>>>> out of print title by say anyone from John Ford to Fassbinder? It
>>>>>>> could not circulate and the rights holder would in fact have far
>>>>>>> better materials.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I have mentioned on more than one occasion I had a little
>>>>>>> "disagreement" with one of the heads of this project at ALA when he
>>>>>>> told a librarian that they should NOT attempt to contact a rights
>>>>>>> holder because they might object to copying a film they owned but
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> out of print. I would be rather surprised if this was your view.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am honestly a bit concerned by this project. I think some library
>>>>>>> collections may contain unique materials on film or things like
>>>>>>> BetaSp, but again it is awfully unlikely they would have truly
>>>>>>> unique
>>>>>>> material from most companies listed below. Are they planning to
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> make copies available of rare out o print titles because a rights
>>>>>>> holder most likely can't afford the cost of mastering and releasing
>>>>>>> the film?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:43 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> hi guys
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Still plugging away on the Mellon grant I've been alluding to for
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>> of months now (identifying out of distribution/at-risk materials
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> library video collections)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The task is going to be to develop a methodology to identify
>>>>>>>> potential
>>>>>>>> candidates in library video collections. The project lead is NYU
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> investigators there are looking at scarce titles in the
>>>>>>>> collections
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> each of the three project partners (i.e. held by one library only)
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> test universe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm developing a considerably different approach. My sense is that
>>>>>>>> scarce
>>>>>>>> titles aren't necessarily the titles that require most urgent
>>>>>>>> attention
>>>>>>>> (primarily because they don't circulate much, and because a lot of
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> tend to be stuff that wasn't commercially distributed in the first
>>>>>>>> place).
>>>>>>>> Instead, I want to focus on a model that identifies broad groups
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> commercially distributed titles that are likely to be out of
>>>>>>>> distribution
>>>>>>>> in any format. Once done, I want to use circulation stat and/or
>>>>>>>> anecdotal
>>>>>>>> info to make decisions about which to deal with first. ("Deal
>>>>>>>> with"
>>>>>>>> means
>>>>>>>> invoking Section 108 to digitize)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I put a list of belly-up distributors and other suspects earlier.
>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> the list again with a few amendments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What have I forgotten? Who have I left out? What else should I be
>>>>>>>> thinking about?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks, as always, for your sage input!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I. Identifying Vendors/Distributors know to be out of business
>>>>>>>> Using Berkeley’s OskiCat local OPAC and/or the Millennium ILS,
>>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>>> videos distributed by the following:
>>>>>>>> • American Poetry Archive
>>>>>>>> • Arthouse, Inc.
>>>>>>>> • Arthur Cantor Films
>>>>>>>> • Carousel Film and Video
>>>>>>>> • Coronet Film and Video
>>>>>>>> • CRM Films / McGraw-Hill Films,
>>>>>>>> • Drift Distribution
>>>>>>>> • Embassy Home Entertainment
>>>>>>>> • Films Incorporated
>>>>>>>> • Home Vision Cinema/Public Media Incorporated
>>>>>>>> • International Film Bureau
>>>>>>>> • International Media Resource Exchange / Latin American Video
>>>>>>>> Archive
>>>>>>>> • InterNationes / Goethe Institute
>>>>>>>> • Learning Corporation of America
>>>>>>>> • Media for the Arts
>>>>>>>> • Media Guild
>>>>>>>> • Mystic Fire Video
>>>>>>>> • National Latino Communications Center (NLCC)
>>>>>>>> • University of California Center for Media and Independent
>>>>>>>> Learning
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> II. Identifying portions of currently in-business vendor catalogs
>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>> to be out of distribution
>>>>>>>> • ABC News / ABC Wide World of Learning
>>>>>>>> • PBS Home Video/PBS Video: films with release dates before 2005
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> • Annenberg/CPB Project pre-2050
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> • Time-Life Film and Video (pre-2000)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> • History Channel (pre-2005)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> • A&E Home Entertainment (pre-2005)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> III. Feature Films
>>>>>>>> List of US and foreign titles not currently available on DVD,
>>>>>>>> assembled
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> members of the VIDEOLIB listserv.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also: titles initially distributed by New Yorker Film and Video,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Center for Cuban Studies
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary Handman
>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>> Media Resources Center
>>>>>>>> Moffitt Library
>>>>>>>> UC Berkeley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 510-643-8566
>>>>>>>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>>>>>>>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>>>>>>>> --Francois Truffaut
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>>>>>>> acquisition,bibliographic
>>>>>>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
>>>>>>>> formats
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>>>>>>> serve
>>>>>>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
>>>>>>>> video
>>>>>>>> producers and distributors.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jessica Rosner
>>>>>>> Media Consultant
>>>>>>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>>>>>>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>>>>>>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>>>>>> acquisition,bibliographic
>>>>>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
>>>>>>> formats
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>>>>>> serve
>>>>>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>>>>>> producers and distributors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary Handman
>>>>>> Director
>>>>>> Media Resources Center
>>>>>> Moffitt Library
>>>>>> UC Berkeley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 510-643-8566
>>>>>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>>>>>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>>>>>> --Francois Truffaut
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>>>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>>>>> acquisition,bibliographic
>>>>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>>>>> serve
>>>>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>>>>>> channel
>>>>>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
>>>>>> video
>>>>>> producers and distributors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jessica Rosner
>>>>> Media Consultant
>>>>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>>>>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>>>>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>>>> acquisition,bibliographic
>>>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
>>>>> in
>>>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>>>> serve
>>>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>>>>> channel
>>>>> of
>>>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>>>> producers and distributors.
>>>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>>>> acquisition,bibliographic
>>>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
>>>>> in
>>>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>>>> serve
>>>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>>>>> channel
>>>>> of
>>>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>>>> producers and distributors.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gary Handman
>>>> Director
>>>> Media Resources Center
>>>> Moffitt Library
>>>> UC Berkeley
>>>>
>>>> 510-643-8566
>>>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>>>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>>>
>>>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>>>> --Francois Truffaut
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>>> acquisition,bibliographic
>>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
>>>> in
>>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>>> serve
>>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
>>>> channel
>>>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>>> producers and distributors.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jessica Rosner
>>> Media Consultant
>>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>> serve
>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
>>> of
>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>> producers and distributors.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Handman
>> Director
>> Media Resources Center
>> Moffitt Library
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 510-643-8566
>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>
>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>> --Francois Truffaut
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jessica Rosner
> Media Consultant
> 224-545-3897 (cell)
> 212-627-1785 (land line)
> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>
Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley
510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.
