Just a thought, Possibly it has something to do with smooth transition from the chord most likely to precede G major (chord V, D major). If you play a D on the second course you have a finger already prepared for the final G chord. Natasha > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:13:01 +0100 > To: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > CC: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > > Dear Monica, > > When you write 'The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other > chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on to > the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and which ones are > doubled is determined by practical considerations not by what anyone > may have learnt in their harmony course.' your second sentence about > the irrelevance of formal rules of harmony seems to me to accurately > reflect how these chords probably became established. > > However the first sentence begs the original question: viz. why show > as 20033 rather than 20003? Here, as others have already pointed > out, I really do think there was some conscious decision made (by > strummers before the days of recorded alfabeto) - in my view probably > to duplicate the fifth rather than the third because the latter was > already strong being the first course struck in a downwards strum. > > Also if there is a bourdon on the fourth course (ie the Corbetta/ > French tuning which might reflect an earlier practice than generally > recorded - certainly the four course guitar had an octave on the fourth > course) if the 2nd course were taken open you would only have one > string (the higher of the fifth course) for the upper octave fifth but > four strings for the thirds; in this case fingering the 2nd > course gives more equality between the thirds and fifths.... > > rgds > > Martyn > > --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > To: "Chris Despopoulos" <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32 > > Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here. > The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged > in the way that most > conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the > notes > and which ones are doubled is determined by > practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their > harmony > course. > Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered and in the > context in > which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing so. In what > circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A rather than > another? > The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old basic chords played in > different positions on the fingerboard. They are not revoiced or > re-arranged in any way. What Sanz has in mind is plaing different > harmonic progressions at different pitches not altering the chords > themselves. > I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a way of "getting you to > play the guitar" or some sort of stepping stone to doing something > superior. It is a perfectly valid tradition in its own right. After > all people had been playing the 4-course guitar for years before > alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can do things like inserting > 4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and adding ornamentation and of > course you can write out completely different chords in tablature. > Improvisation doesn't mean doing something completely out of character. > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos" > <[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "David van Ooijen" > <[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > I have an opinion -- Giving that opinion may open me up to some > > "clarification", which is why I'm giving it. In other words, if > I'm > > wrong about this, please let me know! > > When playing the modern guitar, I'll choose to add the D on the 2nd > > course (from high to low) or not, at will. Considerations include > > practical (as Monica stated for chord changes), leading notes, or > > general emphasis within the musical context. Everybody learns the > G > > chord (modern) in various ways, and then later sees other people > > playing it with variations. At some point, one tries all the > > variations at least once. > > My opinion is that the Alfabeto is there to "get you playing the > > guitar"... Same as rudimentary chord books today. See your > typical > > Ukulele book, for example. Sanz expanded on the Alfabeto with his > > Labarinto, and makes the claim that with all these chords you can > now > > compose whatever variations you want (roughly paraphrased from > > memory). But (again, my opinion) this is still a guideline meant > to > > illustrate the wonderful quality of the guitar, the displacement of > > chord forms to other positions, yielding other chords. I believe > > chords, as a concept, were fairly new at the time, and this > Labarinto > > was quite the innovation. > > Further, my opinion is that you will reach a level of playing where > > your taste dictates your answers to these types of questions, in > the > > given situation. This is the level you want to reach, and I think > Sanz > > would want you to reach it. If you don't know how or why to play a > G > > chord, by all means, use the Alfabeto religiously. If you have > moved > > to the next level, take the Alfabeto as a guideline, but add your > own > > flavor to the music. > > I forget where I read it, and it was in the context of interpreting > > Baroque music on the MODERN guitar, but somebody said (again, > > paraphrased from memory), "In that time, any musician who failed to > > improvise on a piece was a boring bird indeed." Something to that > > effect. (I imagine Richelieu fell into that category... But that's > > another topic.) > > cud > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > > From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > To: David van Ooijen <[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > > Cc: Vihuelalist <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 5:23 PM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > My ears have no problem with doubling the 3rd. As I pointed out > > Chords B, & and N all have the major 3rd doubled. And the > consonant > > form of chord L has the minor 3rd doubled. That doesn't seem to > have > > bothered guitarists in the 17th century and it shouldn't bother you > > today either. > > I doubt whether you have encountered the dissonant form of Chord L > in > > your harmony lessons either. That is a purely practical device. > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David van Ooijen" > > <[1][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > > To: "Vihuelalist" <[2][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:12 PM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > > On 9 September 2012 23:08, Monica Hall > <[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > wrote: > > >> I don't think that doubling the 3rd is an issue or that what > people > > learn in > > >> their harmony lessons today is particularly relevant. I doubt > > whether > > >> guitarists at the beginning of the 17th century thought in those > > terms. > > > > > > Neither do today's guitarists who chose for 33002(3), but their > ears > > > tell them it's the better choice. In harmony lessons you just > learn > > to > > > give names to what your ears already told you. In other words, > don't > > > turn the argument around. > > > > > > David > > > > > > -- ******************************* > > > David van Ooijen > > > [4][11]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > > [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > ******************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. mailto:[13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > 2. mailto:[14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 3. mailto:[15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > 4. mailto:[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > 5. [17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > > > > -- > > References > > 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Espopoulos_chriss@yaho o.com > 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.co m > 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.co m > 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.co m > 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.co m > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.co m > 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.co m > 17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ >
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