and yet, the NFB passed a resolution specifically targeting Apple when apple was clearly the best in the field accessibility wise. I have far less issues with their OS (on the laptop or the iPhone) than I do with the windows machine (using jaws or NVDA or even narrator) At least when an app turns out to be inaccessible on an apple, it isn't apples fault (hell, they published the API for it), it's usually the vendor of the software who decided not to abide by a published API.
By comparison, Microsoft and their MSAA is a joke. They don't even pay attention to it half the time (witness windows 8 and 10 respectively). Now, it is true that the NFB has nagged them over the years to resolve this, but what it really took before MS would take this seriously was a lawsuit. And as for google, their attitude toward us of late has been far less than stellar. Ever since they moved the company head ops to India, its been a nightmare. SOme of Googles tools are now so inaccessible that they cannot be used by a blind person on ANY platform (including their own). THere has also been a trend toward going back to some of the older schemes for keeping out bots, etc. These schemes, by their very nature, are completely inaccessible (like visual only capchas, etc.). compared to those, apple has been the best performer accessibility wise. It is unfortunate that they rolled the accessibility testing division (voiceover) into the mainstream development cycle the way they did. It actually created a situation where accessibility now takes a back seat to overall OS development. An example of this is the nasty bug in the dictation routine that they have, so far, addressed. Given all the above, the NFB proposal as passed smacks of a money grab. Sorry to be a wet blanket on those true believers, but thats my assessment. anyway, I think this thread is now to the point of beating a dead horse, don't you think? -eric On Aug 25, 2016, at 2:55 PM, Wayne Merritt wrote: > After reading a few messages on this thread, I submit the following: > To those that say that the NFB hasn't spoken against other major tech > companies, like Microsoft, Google and Amazon: if you look back at the > NFB resolutions since 2009, you will find around 20 passed that were > directed either in praise or disappointment with accessibility > products from Microsoft, Google and Amazon. Anyone recall all of the > almost yearly resolutions and protests that the nFB made against > Amazon over the Kindle line? Yes, that Kindle that many of you have on > your desk and your enjoyment of its services, you can thank the NFB > for access to that Kindle. The NFB has spoken up over other access > issues, like the many Google apps, Microsoft services, and access > issues from other companies like the Nook from Barnes & Noble. And how > many resolutions were passed against Apple? Counting this year's: 4. > Think what you will, but this has nothing to do with money. If it were > about money, then the NFB would not have brought resolutions/lawsuits > against Target, Google, or Microsoft, among others. > > Regards, > Wayne > > On 8/25/16, Regina Alvarado <reggie.alvar...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had some >> issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am >> deeply grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its >> operating system, but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB only >> pointed this out, and I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along >> with other things like nonaccessible web sites and other technology that has >> not caught up. I have my own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are >> holding Apple's feet to the fire and hopefully will do the same for other >> technology companies. Unfortunately, they have a past history of planting >> their feet on one entity and stomping them. I know. I was there when they >> went completely off the grid on a guide dog school which had problems which >> its students were taking care of. This is another example, but a needed >> statement too. Perhaps another technology user next year will take on the >> writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft or any number of tech >> companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as much gusto as this >> one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them money. However, >> if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a lot of beta >> testers say, then I am happy. >> >> reggie & Lex >> >> On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro <mario....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Mary, my answer to you is: >> read the post from Jonathan Mosen. >> >> http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/ >> >> Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu: >>> Mario, >>> Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of >>> bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and >>> I'm not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from >>> other vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not >>> make me ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind >>> anyone. I have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply >>> would not change their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also >>> sat in other meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite. No >>> one and no organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree >>> that the quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many >>> others in the software field are serious. But the fact that the Federation >>> takes money from other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and >>> then does not produce resolutions calling on them to up their quality >>> game, well, it's rather suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering >>> that, it was a rhetorical question. >>> >>> Mary >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro <mario....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> you are of those only has intelligence to criticize what others do for >>>> you ... >>>> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and >>>> accessibility. >>>> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you. >>>> NFB never done anything for you? >>>> read this and learn. >>>> >>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions >>>> >>>> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu: >>>>> Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically >>>>> called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling >>>>> Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on >>>>> other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and >>>>> someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and >>>>> should probably stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their >>>>> convention as a champion. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016 >>>>>> convention. As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion >>>>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love >>>>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dacia >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the >>>>>>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and >>>>>>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone >>>>>>> heard. >>>>>>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I can make up my own mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote: >>>>>>>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB >>>>>>>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate >>>>>>>> prioritization to >>>>>>>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass >>>>>>>> despite >>>>>>>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant >>>>>>>> surprise >>>>>>>> in iOS 9.3.4. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who >>>>>>>> is an >>>>>>>> avowed Apple basher. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any >>>>>>>> merit >>>>>>>> whatsoever. It certainly causes me to have very little regard for >>>>>>>> NFB and >>>>>>>> that organization’s leadership. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming >>>>>>>> grounds >>>>>>>> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the >>>>>>>> object >>>>>>>> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were >>>>>>>> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then >>>>>>>> occupy >>>>>>>> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the >>>>>>>> author >>>>>>>> of that article would ever possibly occupy the “high ground” on >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder! >>>>>>>> **************** >>>>>>>> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland >>>>>>>> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be >>>>>>>> pretty >>>>>>>> sure they are going to have some pretty annoying virtues." >>>>>>>> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)-- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>>>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V >>>>>>> iPhone >>>>>>> list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>> or if >>>>>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>>>> owners or >>>>>>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara >>>>>>> Quinn - 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