for those that want to discuss this continue this off list please.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Oyen
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 11:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]
and yet, the NFB passed a resolution specifically targeting Apple when apple
was clearly the best in the field accessibility wise. I have far less issues
with their OS (on the laptop or the iPhone) than I do with the windows
machine (using jaws or NVDA or even narrator) At least when an app turns out
to be inaccessible on an apple, it isn't apples fault (hell, they published
the API for it), it's usually the vendor of the software who decided not to
abide by a published API.
By comparison, Microsoft and their MSAA is a joke. They don't even pay
attention to it half the time (witness windows 8 and 10 respectively). Now,
it is true that the NFB has nagged them over the years to resolve this, but
what it really took before MS would take this seriously was a lawsuit.
And as for google, their attitude toward us of late has been far less than
stellar. Ever since they moved the company head ops to India, its been a
nightmare. SOme of Googles tools are now so inaccessible that they cannot be
used by a blind person on ANY platform (including their own). THere has also
been a trend toward going back to some of the older schemes for keeping out
bots, etc. These schemes, by their very nature, are completely inaccessible
(like visual only capchas, etc.).
compared to those, apple has been the best performer accessibility wise. It
is unfortunate that they rolled the accessibility testing division
(voiceover) into the mainstream development cycle the way they did. It
actually created a situation where accessibility now takes a back seat to
overall OS development. An example of this is the nasty bug in the dictation
routine that they have, so far, addressed.
Given all the above, the NFB proposal as passed smacks of a money grab.
Sorry to be a wet blanket on those true believers, but thats my assessment.
anyway, I think this thread is now to the point of beating a dead horse,
don't you think?
-eric
On Aug 25, 2016, at 2:55 PM, Wayne Merritt wrote:
After reading a few messages on this thread, I submit the following:
To those that say that the NFB hasn't spoken against other major tech
companies, like Microsoft, Google and Amazon: if you look back at the
NFB resolutions since 2009, you will find around 20 passed that were
directed either in praise or disappointment with accessibility
products from Microsoft, Google and Amazon. Anyone recall all of the
almost yearly resolutions and protests that the nFB made against
Amazon over the Kindle line? Yes, that Kindle that many of you have on
your desk and your enjoyment of its services, you can thank the NFB
for access to that Kindle. The NFB has spoken up over other access
issues, like the many Google apps, Microsoft services, and access
issues from other companies like the Nook from Barnes & Noble. And how
many resolutions were passed against Apple? Counting this year's: 4.
Think what you will, but this has nothing to do with money. If it were
about money, then the NFB would not have brought resolutions/lawsuits
against Target, Google, or Microsoft, among others.
Regards,
Wayne
On 8/25/16, Regina Alvarado <[email protected]> wrote:
Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had
some
issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am
deeply grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its
operating system, but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB
only
pointed this out, and I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along
with other things like nonaccessible web sites and other technology that
has
not caught up. I have my own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are
holding Apple's feet to the fire and hopefully will do the same for other
technology companies. Unfortunately, they have a past history of planting
their feet on one entity and stomping them. I know. I was there when they
went completely off the grid on a guide dog school which had problems
which
its students were taking care of. This is another example, but a needed
statement too. Perhaps another technology user next year will take on the
writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft or any number of tech
companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as much gusto as
this
one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them money.
However,
if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a lot of
beta
testers say, then I am happy.
reggie & Lex
On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro <[email protected]> wrote:
Mary, my answer to you is:
read the post from Jonathan Mosen.
http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/
Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
Mario,
Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of
bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and
I'm not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from
other vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does
not
make me ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep
behind
anyone. I have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply
would not change their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also
sat in other meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite.
No
one and no organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly
agree
that the quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many
others in the software field are serious. But the fact that the
Federation
takes money from other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and
then does not produce resolutions calling on them to up their quality
game, well, it's rather suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering
that, it was a rhetorical question.
Mary
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro <[email protected]> wrote:
you are of those only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.
https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically
called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling
Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on
other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and
someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I have said before
and
should probably stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their
convention as a champion.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention. As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
thanks,
Dacia
On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I
have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this
is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all
of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone
heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was
passed
so
I can make up my own mind.
On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass
despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other
companies.
Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant
surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.
I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse
who
is an
avowed Apple basher.
I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without
any
merit
whatsoever. It certainly causes me to have very little regard for
NFB and
that organization’s leadership.
This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where
the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming
grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the
object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers
were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then
occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the
author
of that article would ever possibly occupy the “high ground” on
this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all
this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
****************
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chaltain at Gmail
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