Thanks, Ryan, it has absolutely nothing to do with attacking anybody. People who know me from this list also know that while I’m a Windows user, I am a very big Apple fan when it comes to iOS devices, the Apple TV and the Apple Watch. I am the first to point out that Apple has done great things when it comes to making accessibility a main stream topic. That does not mean I can’t criticise when they do something which makes no sense. Yes, Alleha, after you mentioned it I checked and the app switcher is now back to behaving this way. I installed iOS 11.1 last night so forgive me for not having noticed all changes yet. In fact since we did let a few things about iOS 11.1 out of the bag, it is going to be a nice update which is going to fix a lot of issues although I am not a braille user so I’m not sure how far they’ll get with that. Anyhow, I don’t want this to become a discussion about 11.1 since it’s not something Cara and Mark want. Now, what if a double tap opens apps as it does and has done ever since Voiceover came out, but in iOS 12 Apple for some reason only they know decided that in order to open links or activate buttons you now had to triple tap. A double tap still opens apps, but everything else you now have to triple tap. It would make no sense, it would be inconsistent and it would make most people mad no end except for a few who maybe also would defend Apple, but that doesn’t mean they are right. When it comes to deleting things whether it’s an email, a text message, a recent call or Favourite the behaviour of the rotor should be consistent and not one thing here and another thing there. Anyhow, that’s the last I’ll say about it, if Apple were to take a look at messages they get I bet 90 or 95% would agree that consistency is important here and so let’s see how it plays out.
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mann Sent: Friday, September 29, 2017 6:30 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Please join me in asking Apple to make rotor options consistent again and to fix the delete rotor bug which they say is not a bug I don’t feel like this is attacking Apple. I am on a few different mailing lists and it now takes me longer to go through these messages. I’ve also accidently deleted a few messages because the rotor was set to Delete when it should have been set to Activate. Either Activate is the default option or it’s not. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 29, 2017, at 9:21 PM, Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1...@gmail.com<mailto:blindcowgirl1...@gmail.com>> wrote: Why are we attacking Apple here? They are trying to make a good thing. and, as you are a beta tester, you will have noticed that the app switcher has been fixed and does behave like iOS 10. Honestly, it feels like folks just don't like change. Do you really think sighted people don't deal with similar changes in UI that cause them to retrain their brains? If you do, then you're mistaken. Why should everything behave as it was? Maybe Apple will introduce something else that I don't like, but that's the nature of software. We can't have everything we like. It's our job to be able to adapt to change. It's not practical to adapt the rotor in all situations to behave like this, but in this case, where you might want to delete a bunch of mail at once, it's a blessing and, might I add, much faster than tapping edit and selecting, as this bogs down after a while and is buggy in itself, because if you delete some emails but not all, focus does not return to the top of the list like it should after the deletion, in fact, it will be set at exactly the number of messages you deleted down the list. That's a bigger issue for me than this. I say, let's encourage Apple to fix these bugs and be happy with a change that is going to help in the long run. I'm a trainer, too, and I teach my clients to deal with change. Not every app works the same, and we must learn how to deal with that. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 29, 2017, at 8:04 PM, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca<mailto:siegh...@live.ca>> wrote: Aleeha, think of it this way: when iOS 11 was first released everybody considered it a bug and it adds nothing to productivity. If you really have a bunch of emails to delete tap the edit button and you can mark messages to your heart content, in any case, doing a quick flick up before a double tap is so fast that you can’t even measure it. From: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Aleeha Dudley Sent: Friday, September 29, 2017 2:45 PM To: viPhone <viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>> Subject: Re: Please join me in asking Apple to make rotor options consistent again and to fix the delete rotor bug which they say is not a bug I agree with you, Mary, that should be fixed. But bashing the feature altogether is not OK. Let’s fix the bug, not complain until it returns to the old way. I, for one, would like this thing to work. I’ve actually found, in the latest beta, that it’s getting better. Aleeha On Sep 29, 2017, at 4:38 PM, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com<mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote: It could theoretically be a great change for productivity if it were 100% consistent. It isn't. It's a disaster. It makes you keep checking and rechecking which makes the use of the mail app quite less efficient than it used to be. The word default ought to mean something. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Sep 29, 2017, at 2:19 PM, Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1...@gmail.com<mailto:blindcowgirl1...@gmail.com>> wrote: Guys, Personally, I think this is a great addition to productivity. Yes, it’s a change that we must get used to, but I think it would make the power users of mail very happy. Now, they do need to solve some consistency issues, but I personally like it. It behaves as the app switcher did in iOS 10. Also, regarding the comment about restoring a deleted item, shake your phone, and you will, magically, have an “undo Trash” dialog box. If Apple isn’t allowed to change its OS, why should they pay attention to us at all? When we whine and complain about a change that could significantly improve productivity, why should Apple make its operating system more accessible and better for us? On Sep 29, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca<mailto:siegh...@live.ca>> wrote: Hello List, There has been a fair bit of discussion on a change Apple has implemented in the Mail app whenit comes to using the rotor to delete messages. In the past and ever since Apple has introduced rotor actions, a marvellous invention, the behaviour of the rotor has been quite consistent. Usually you check your Inbox, some messages you don’t even open before you want to delete them, others you might read and want to delete afterwards, no matter what, you would normally flick up once when ona message in the Inbox, this would put focus on the “Delete” option and now you simply double tap and the message is deleted. This is the same in the Messages app, it works if you want to delete a Favourite in your Phone app, a recent call and you can use it in many other places. After the message or whatever you are deleting has been deleted, for years the normal behaviour was that “Activate” has focus again. This of course makes sense because if you flick through the available options, “Activate” also tells you that it is the default option so of course you would expect that whatever you do focus returns to it so after you delete a message and if you now want to read the next message all you have to do is double tap and it opens up. Now in IOS 11 Apple has decided that in the Mail app only the rotor should behave differently. Mind you if you go to your Inbox and flick through the available rotor options, when you get back to activate it still says “Activate, default” However, if you flick up to delete and double tap to delete a message and then double tap again expecting you are going to open the next message in focus you are sadly mistaken. Apparently the term “default” doesn’t apply any more and all you just did is delete the next message. Oops, it was an important message you wanted to keep or reply to? Well, no problem, just back out of your Inbox, find your delete items, find the message and move it back to the Inbox, then back out of deleted items and go back to your Inbox. Why, thank you Apple, you just made my day, I didn’t count how many taps and flicks, scrub gestures and swipes this takes, but it’s of course ridiculous. We all know how engrained keystrokes and by now taps and swipes become when you get used to something, it makes no sense to make “delete” the default action especially if it still says “Activate” is the default. I also wonder what’s next, what if Apple decides this should also be so in the Messages app? If you accidently delete a text message with important information like maybe the link to the boarding pass you just sent to your phone after checking in to a flight online then you can’t just tap, swipe and scrub for 30 seconds to get it back, it’s gone for good which is why allowing Apple to get away with this sets I think a dangerous precedent. Looking at the issue from that perspective is concerning and I think it is one of these times when everybody and I really mean everybody even if you don’t use the Mail app on the iPhone should send a message toaccessibil...@apple.com<mailto:accessibil...@apple.com> asking that the default action which is “activate” is restored, it may not effect you this time, but maybe next time Apple changes something it will effect you and we need to speak up and let Apple know that we prefer a consistent, polished UI and experience over random and unexplained changes which make no sense to anybody. Come on Apple, Tim Cook and others point out at every keynote how Apple can do things others can’t because you have complete control over both hardware and software, you claim that your devices and software are superior because of the consistency in the UI often even when you go from iOS to Mac OS, TV OS and Watch OS so put your rotor actions where your mouth is and fix this so it is once again consistent. I am going to do something I usually don’t do because I respect the owner’s wish not to discuss beta software. However, in this case I will say that after installing the iOS 11.1 Public Beta this behaviour is still present. This would support the email I received from Apple Accessibility where after I submitted this as a bug I was told that it is in fact changed and expected behaviour. In iOS 11.1 Apple has added additional and completely unnecessary verbage, now if you flick up to the delete rotor option and double tap Voiceover tells you “Message Deleted”. I am amazed to receive such profound information, I mean I just performed the actions to delete a message, do I really need to hear that this is what I did? I guess it helps when you forget that the rotor is on delete now so when I double tap to open my next message maybe Apple should add an evil laughing sound after it says “Message deleted” or maybe the second time it should say “You idiot, you just deleted another message, don’t you remember that the default rotor action is not actually the default anymore”? In iOS 11.1 you can now also wait for Voiceover to entirely read the next message in your Inbox which means listening to where it came from, the subject and when it arrived, after all that is spoken Voiceover now does provide the helpful information “current action, delete”. I admit that is somewhat helpful, but how often do I actually want to listen to Voiceover reading all this stuff? I guess I could suggest that “Current action, delete” is spoken before Voiceover reads the message information, similar to how Voiceover will say “Unread” before unread messages, but that would mean I am satisfied with having delete as the default rotor action once you select that option where all I really want is for Apple to make the rotor go back to “Activate” where it should be. Lastly I would like you guys to click on Jonathan Mosen’s blog article“Cupertino we have a design problem”.<http://mosen.org/cupertino-we-have-a-design-problem/> As always it is up to Jonathan’s usual high standard of a well-articulated and well-presented argument regarding this issue and while I have already borrowed some of his points to make my own, please do read it and then decide for yourself if this makes sense or not. There are probably a few people who think it does, but ask yourself what introducing such inconsistencies really accomplishes and where we will be in a few years, maybe down the road a double tap will only activate a button or a link or other item throughout the week and on Sundays Voiceover will tell you to enjoy your weekend instead and that you should really leave your phone alone and spend quality time with your family and friends. I know this is an unlikely example, but I just want to make the point again that Apple of all companies should follow their own teachings and make things consistent and easy to use instead of surprising us with different behaviour in different places. Of all things the Mail app is Apple’s own design and one could argue it’s almost part of the OS even though one can of course choose to use a third-party app for mail. If a developer decided that once delete is selected it essentially becomes the new default action I could maybe understand this because maybe they don’t know any better, but Apple should. Feel free to simply forward this entire message to Apple Accessibility if you don’t feel like writing your own and simply add your support, agreement and request to change this again at the beginning. Best regards, Sieghard -- The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: mk...@ucla.edu<mailto:mk...@ucla.edu>. 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