I remember Outspoken on early Macs while the rest of us were still on DOS 
and swooning over the dectalk external synth;  sound didn't come naturally 
to computers at that time. I was using an early Hal on a Mimic and then an 
Apollo,  there were several others; can't remember the one that Dectalk 
always got paird up with.  Jaws was a late comer to all this.  Vocaleyes, 
precursor to WindowEyes springs to mind.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christopher Chaltain" <chalt...@gmail.com>
To: <viphone@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [New post] ‘Shockingly bad’ Google Android 5.0 Lollipop update 
bricks phones, tablets; kills apps


I've heard rumors of this Apple screen reader before, but I've never
been able to find any information on it on the web. I see references to
Textalker from Street Electronics, and I know Raised Dot Computing had
some self voicing applications for the Apple II, but I don't recall this
screen reader from Apple myself, and like I said, I haven't been able to
find any information on it on the web.

On 11/20/2014 11:36 PM, David Chittenden wrote:
> Your information about Apple's past regarding accessibility is not 
> precisely accurate.
>
> Apple placed a rudimentary screen reader in the Apple II back in 1983. I 
> know because I worked with it for a brief period of time during my first 
> attempt at university. It did not give me the same access as the $10,000 
> specialised computer system, and as I was a computer systems student at 
> the time, I usually had priority on the better machine.
>
> In 1989, I managed a community college AT lab. I also managed the faculty 
> port server database for IT. One day, my IT boss summoned me to his office 
> where he demonstrated his nice new Macintosh. He loaded the built-in 
> screen-enlargement on the Mac (which Apple never advertised about, and 
> showed me how much better it was compared with the TSI Vista enlargement 
> system I maintained on one of the AT machines. At that time, I could see 
> letters if they were two to four on the monitor at a time. The mac 
> enlargement was crisp and clear, even at my magnification requirements. 
> The Vista board system caused pixelation around the edges of the letters. 
> Also, the Mac system used and followed the mouse precisely. We did not 
> have a mouse on the Vista machine.
>
> In the mid 90's, I learned from a cousin who is a Mac software engineer 
> who consulted for APPLE, that he was payed by Apple to interface with 
> Berkeley Systems so they would have the best possible interface with 
> OutSpoken for Mac.
>
> After Berkeley Systems went out of business, and HumanWare (or was it 
> Pulse Data) decided not to continue OutSpoken for Mac (after purchasing 
> the rights of the software), Apple contacted Freedom Scientific attempting 
> to get them to develop the screen reader for OSX. Freedom Scientific 
> refused, so Apple decided to take Mac screen reader development in-house 
> in 2002 / 2003. They released VoiceOver for OSX Tiger in 2005, which 
> speaks to a two year screen-reader development cycle.
>
> Contrary to the common belief, the above history does not demonstrate a 
> company which was uninterested in accessibility. They often initially got 
> it wrong, but they were never not interested.
>
> Note: everything except my cousin's information can be located on the net. 
> I will not divulge my cousin's information as what was said I consider to 
> be in confidence (especially considering Apple's pathological need for 
> privacy and confidentiality.
>
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 21 Nov 2014, at 16:26, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sadly, I knew people who had the old Apple computers back in the 80s, and 
>> also who had max running outspoken. It is a fact, so far as I understand 
>> it from people who know more than I do., That Apple did exactly nothing 
>> with respect to accessibility until after the feds past 508 and they woke 
>> up and smell the coffee and realized that they were going to lose out if 
>> they didn't develop something. Then, they did voiceover. For the Mac, and 
>> then the iPhone, and they have done an excellent job by and large, 
>> although with the Mac, there are still some problems. That isn't to say 
>> that Microsoft or anyone else did any better. I just want to make the 
>> point that Steve Jobs was not an angel. And for many years, Apple really 
>> did less than Microsoft with respect to helping the third-party 
>> developers who are trying to make the system accessible.
>> Mary
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Nov 20, 2014, at 1:29 PM, Mary Anne Lynskey <marlyn...@gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have never found that the Droid system has been easy to use from 
>>> playing with my brother's phone. In fact, I have found it to be clumbsy 
>>> and awkward to navigate. Having stated that, I've not really learned how 
>>> to use it either and am just starting to do some homework on it now. I 
>>> am hoping that things improve before the time comes for me to decide. I 
>>> think the problem here is that Apple had raised the bar so high that we 
>>> are all upset and disappointed when things fall apart, as we should be. 
>>> And yes, I still think Steve J is a huge loss and even if the system was 
>>> not good to start with, it became far superior to anything out there on 
>>> his watch. In fact, my very first computer that I could use with good 
>>> functionality way back in the early 80's was the Apple IIe or IIc, can't 
>>> remember which. That was before MS really had much out there that was 
>>> accessible and if IBM did, it was very costly. So I think the apple 
>>> founders truly did have accessibility as a priority from the start. I
do think that one person can make a big difference in what a company does, 
its policies and its priorities, especially if the person happen to be in 
Mr. J's position. That's my take on the Steve J issue, a huge loss and too 
young. This new person in charge needs to step up to the plate, fix what is 
broken and quit tinkering with that stupid watch.
>>>
>>> Mary Anne
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 11/19/2014 9:49 PM, David Chittenden wrote:
>>>> Well, Google obviously never releases extremely bug-ridden software 
>>>> like Apple does, right? (see the below message).
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>>> *From:* MacDailyNews <comment-re...@wordpress.com 
>>>>> <mailto:comment-re...@wordpress.com>>
>>>>> *Date:* 20 November 2014 14:59:33 NZDT
>>>>> *To:* dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* *[New post] ‘Shockingly bad’ Google Android 5.0 Lollipop 
>>>>> update bricks phones, tablets; kills apps*
>>>>> *Reply-To:* "MacDailyNews" 
>>>>> <comment+e60benyponb65mhj-j_lcs...@comment.wordpress.com 
>>>>> <mailto:comment+e60benyponb65mhj-j_lcs...@comment.wordpress.com>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WordPress.com
>>>>> MacDailyNews posted: "[cfsp key="adsense_336x280"]"Early adopters of 
>>>>> Google's latest Android operating system are warning others of 
>>>>> problems with the software," Leo Kelion reports for The Beeb. "Issues 
>>>>> include the update causing Nexus 7 tablets to run slowly and 
>>>>> repeatedly cra"
>>>>> Respond to this post by replying above this line
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    New post on *MacDailyNews*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/author/macdailynews/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    ‘Shockingly bad’ Google Android 5.0 Lollipop update bricks
>>>>>    phones, tablets; kills apps
>>>>> 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/11/19/shockingly-bad-google-android-5-0-lollipop-update-bricks-phones-tablets-kills-apps/>
>>>>>
>>>>> by MacDailyNews <http://macdailynews.com/author/macdailynews/>
>>>>>
>>>>> [cfsp key="adsense_336x280"]"Early adopters of Google's latest Android 
>>>>> operating system are warning others of problems with the software," 
>>>>> Leo Kelion reports for The Beeb. "Issues include the update causing 
>>>>> Nexus 7 tablets to run slowly and repeatedly crash, with several users 
>>>>> complaining they had become 'unusable.'"
>>>>>
>>>>>    *MacDailyNews Take: *Even more so than usual, apparently.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The code also appears to remove apps built with Adobe Air and then 
>>>>> prevent them from being reinstalled," Kelion reports. "Dozens of 
>>>>> messages posted to Google's own forums suggest that owners of the 2012 
>>>>> version of the Nexus 7, in particular, are experiencing headaches. 
>>>>> 'Some apps won't work and some crash. I wish I didn't install the 
>>>>> update,' wrote Kristen Sawyer. Another user, nicknamed StretchToo 
>>>>> said: 'Chrome is dead, unusable, Firefox just about works, the 
>>>>> keyboard takes over a minute to load, nearly works if you hunt and 
>>>>> peck but dies if you try to swipe.'"
>>>>>
>>>>> "'Updated and the Nexus is [so] shockingly bad it is basically 
>>>>> unusable, lags just rotating the screen, every task takes 10 seconds 
>>>>> to perform if it does it [at all],' wrote Gary Looker," Kelion 
>>>>> reports. "Several Android Lollipop users have also highlighted 
>>>>> compatibility problems with Air-based apps... Reports elsewhere 
>>>>> suggest some users are experiencing problems with text messages, the 
>>>>> way contacts are managed, and wi-fi connectivity."
>>>>>
>>>>> *Read more in the full article here 
>>>>> <http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30116319>.*
>>>>>
>>>>>    *MacDailyNews Take: *It's well past time to stop settling for
>>>>>    inferior wares and get the iPhone 6, 6 Plus, iPad Air 2, and/or
>>>>>    iPad mini that you really wanted but stupidly tried to
>>>>>    approximate, fragmandroid settlers.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Pry open thou eyes, casteth aside thine darkness and
>>>>>    cometh-hither into the light!
>>>>>
>>>>> [Thanks to MacDailyNews Reader "buddabob" for the heads up.]
>>>>>
>>>>> *Related articles:*
>>>>> Apple posts new how-to guide: Switching from Android phone to iPhone 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/16/apple-posts-new-how-to-guide-switching-from-android-phone-to-iphone/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 16, 2014
>>>>> Reviewers fall all over themselves to praise Apple’s 64-bit iPhone 
>>>>> 6/Plus 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/17/reviewers-fall-all-over-themselves-to-praise-apples-64-bit-iphone-6plus/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 17, 2014
>>>>> iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus tested at Disneyland: ‘So badass’ 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/17/iphone-6-iphone-6-plus-tested-at-disneyland-so-badass/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 17, 2014
>>>>> Re/code reviews Apple’s 64-bit iPhone 6 Plus: ‘A statement phone,’ not 
>>>>> a ‘plastic toy’ 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/17/recode-reviews-apples-64-bit-iphone-6-plus-a-statement-phone-not-a-plastic-toy/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 17, 2014
>>>>> Megapixels mean nothing: Apple iPhone 6 trounces Samsung Galaxy S5 in 
>>>>> camera shootout 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/17/megapixels-mean-nothing-apple-iphone-6-trounces-samsung-galaxy-s5-in-camera-shootout/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 17, 2014
>>>>> The Telegraph reviews Apple’s 64-bit iPhone 6 Plus: ‘It’s peerless’ 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/17/the-telegraph-reviews-apples-64-bit-iphone-6-plus-its-peerless/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 17, 2014
>>>>> TechCrunch reviews Apple’s 64-bit iPhone 6: ‘The best smartphone 
>>>>> available’ 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/17/techcrunch-reviews-apples-64-bit-iphone-6-the-best-smartphone-available/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 17, 2014
>>>>> USA Today’s Baig reviews Apple’s 64-bit iPhone 6/Plus: ‘Smartphone 
>>>>> stars’ 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/17/usa-todays-baig-reviews-apples-64-bit-iphone-6plus-smartphone-stars/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 17, 2014
>>>>> Walt Mossberg reviews Apple’s 64-bit iPhone 6: ‘The best smartphone on 
>>>>> the market’ 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/16/walt-mossberg-reviews-apples-64-bit-iphone-6-the-best-smartphone-on-the-market/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 16, 2014
>>>>> The Wall Street Journal reviews Apple’s 64-bit iPhone 6: ‘The best 
>>>>> smartphone you can buy’ 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/16/the-wall-street-journal-reviews-apples-64-bit-iphone-6-the-best-smartphone-you-can-buy/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 16, 2014
>>>>> Macworld reviews 64-bit iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus: Bigger is better 
>>>>> (in the right hands) 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/09/16/macworld-reviews-64-bit-iphone-6-and-iphone-6-plus-bigger-is-better-in-the-right-hands/>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  - September 16, 2014
>>>>>
>>>>> *MacDailyNews <http://macdailynews.com/author/macdailynews/>* | 
>>>>> Wednesday, November 19, 2014 at 8:59 pm | Tags: android 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=android>, App Store knockoffs 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=app-store-knockoffs>, App Store roadkill 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=app-store-roadkill>, App Store wannabes 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=app-store-wannabes>, Apple 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=apple>, crappy Android phones 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=crappy-android-phones>, crappy Android 
>>>>> tablets <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=crappy-android-tablets>, 
>>>>> Fragmandroid <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=fragmandroid>, google 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=google>, iOS knockoffs 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=ios-knockoffs>, iOS roadkill 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=ios-roadkill>, iOS wannabes 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=ios-wannabes>, iPad knockoffs 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=ipad-knockoffs>, iPad roadkill 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/?tag=ipad-roadkill>, iPad wannabes <http:/
/macdailynews.com/?tag=ipad-wannabes>, iPhone knockoffs 
<http://macdailynews.com/?tag=iphone-knockoffs>, iPhone roadkill 
<http://macdailynews.com/?tag=iphone-roadkill>, iPhone wannabes 
<http://macdailynews.com/?tag=iphone-wannabes>, Lillipop 
<http://macdailynews.com/?tag=lillipop>, patent infringement 
<http://macdailynews.com/?tag=patent-infringement>, trade dress infringement 
<http://macdailynews.com/?tag=trade-dress-infringement> | Categories: News 
<http://macdailynews.com/?cat=103> | URL: http://wp.me/p19WFc-BYs
>>>>>
>>>>> Comment 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/11/19/shockingly-bad-google-android-5-0-lollipop-update-bricks-phones-tablets-kills-apps/#respond>
>>>>>  
>>>>> See all comments 
>>>>> <http://macdailynews.com/2014/11/19/shockingly-bad-google-android-5-0-lollipop-update-bricks-phones-tablets-kills-apps/#comments>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe 
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-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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