What I don't know is whether the gained kinetic energy is equal to the energy you put into the loop to establish the magnetic field, but this may be true I just haven't worked it out.
What if both magnets are permanent ones, you don't have to put energy in do you? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > On 1/30/07, Michel Jullian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? Simply the energy you put >> into the loop to >> > establish the magnetic field. >> >> I don't know, do we have to put energy into a positive charge so that it >> gets attracted to a negative charge? (we must not forget that the magnetic >> force from a moving charged particle is purely electric in that particle's >> rest frame) > > > Ever heard of self inductance? > When trying to establish a current the current forms a magnetic field, as > the magnetic is time varying from nothing to the full level of current in > the loop, this creates an emf in the loop which opposes the voltage being > applied. (unless you designed the coil to not create a magnetic field) > > So while it might be a constant current and no energy is requires to > maintain the current, you still had to put energy in to establish the field. > > This is pretty freaking basic stuff! > > Michel >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Berry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics >> >> >> > The magnet moving towards the loop will induce the opposite voltage in >> the >> > loop, as .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 volts >> > induced in the opposite direction is enough to reverse the current >> direction >> > in the SC loop the magnet will basically not be attracted at all. >> > Except of course for the fact that this would collapse the magnetic >> field of >> > the loop, so this helps keep the current flowing. >> > >> > So what will occur is a hand off, the voltage induced by the magnet will >> be >> > equal to the voltage induced by the collapsing magnetic field, so the >> > magnetic field is slowly collapsed, there is no more current in the loop >> and >> > the magnet has gained KE. >> > >> > Where did this come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to >> > establish the magnetic field. (It might be a superconductor so it takes >> no >> > energy to maintain a magnetic field but it does take energy to establish >> > one) >> > >> > In this case energy is conserved, and energy is always conserved unless >> you >> > use the aether, space time to change the rules. >> > >> > >> > On 1/29/07, Michel Jullian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies >> things >> >> somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the >> >> non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer >> to the >> >> electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to. >> >> >> >> 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current >> >> through the loop. >> >> >> >> 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, constant current so >> >> zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we >> can >> >> connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without >> >> stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will >> remain >> >> zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance. >> >> >> >> 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and >> >> accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be >> gained, >> >> but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero? >> >> >> >> Michel >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> To: <[email protected]> >> >> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:16 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics >> >> >> >> >> >> > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> > > I agree with all the interesting comments below, >> >> > both Stephen's and yours, relative to >> >> > the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes >> >> > it non purely inductive to some >> >> > extent when current varies with time. >> >> > > >> >> > > However, may I remind you that my initial >> >> > statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect, >> >> > simply said that "keeping the current going" in an >> >> > isolated non-resistive current loop >> >> > would not consume energy. >> >> > > In which case i is constant in time, so the >> >> > frequency f of the signal is zero, so the >> >> > wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation >> >> > resistance: >> >> > > >> >> > > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2 (with A the area of the >> >> > circular loop) is zero. >> >> > > >> >> > > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too. >> >> > This still doesn't make my loop consume >> >> > energy. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Your Quote, >> >> > --- >> >> > "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, >> >> > true but that's only because the wires >> >> > are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not >> >> > consume any energy to keep the >> >> > current going." >> >> > --- >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > LOL ... this is hopeless. Again --> You state the >> >> > only consumed energy in an >> >> > electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive. >> >> > Besides the fact you missed other >> >> > factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the >> >> > fact that a magnet attracted and >> >> > accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop >> >> > would *indeed* induce an opposing >> >> > voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE >> >> > comes from the wire resistive current loop. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > Paul Lowrance >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. >> >> > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. >> >> > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >
