SK: Experimental disproof would require Cerron-Zeballos to have gone into
the Piantelli-Focardi lab and determine exactly how Piantelli-Focardi
goofed - or explicitly analyzed Piantelli-Focardi's data, assuming they
made a mistake.
JR: They did not need to do that any more than Miles needed to visit CalTech,
SK: Jed,
I do appreciate the opportunity to argue some of these points with you. It
think it is helpful, at least for me. Now if I recall, Miles did a
secondary study on the Lewis (Caltech) data. Noninsky was the one who did
the primary investigation. And if my sources are correct, Noninski did not
compare the results of his own experiment to "disprove" Caltech; Noninski
directly analyzed the Caltech data.
I quote from The Rebirth of Cold Fusion, page 99:
*********************
Dr. Robert Bass, a physicist formerly with the hot fusion program at
Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, recalled learning about another
scientist who audited the Caltech cold fusion work:
Dr. Noninsky, an internationally distinguished calorimetrist, asked to see
Caltech's raw data and reanalyzed it. He proved that, even though Caltech
researchers had incompetently not bothered to attain any of the
Fleischmann-Pons "minimum thresholds" for good experiments, they had still
attained 10 percent or so excess heat at Caltech, but they just didn't want
to admit it. Dr. Noninski's papers exposing the bungle at Caltech have been
refused to be published by Science and Nature, though there are no
identifiable mistakes in his work.21
*********************
PLEASE TELL ME: Did Cerron-Zeballos get access to the Piantelli-Focardi
data and reanalyze it? If so, you have a good argument and I admit my
oversight and error. If not, it is my opinion that your argument lacks merit.
JR: or than McKubre needed to visit the labs of the experiments that he
demonstrated were prosaic. All they have to do is get the same result and
show that it is not anomalous. That is what Cerron-Zeballos did with a gas
calorimeter, by putting a temperature probe on the outside as well as near
the Ni sample. The Ni got hot but the outside did not. That is proof that
with the initial configuration, the calorimetery did not work. Mizuno
(with proton conductors) and Biberian saw similar results with similar
devices, ranging from unconvincing to a definite null.
In the next round, Focardi used a more sophisticated calorimeter with more
thermocouples. That's good, but based on the performance of similar
calorimeters I would still prefer to see something like a Seebeck
calorimeter. Local hotspots and changes in conductivity still cannot be
ruled out. The temperature inversion shown in Fig. 4 is somewhat more
convincing. However, Mizuno's hydrogenation experiments also showed an
inversion yet at the same time no excess heat by the calibration and other
methods. I conclude that these devices are tricky and difficult to
believe. As I said at the outset, given all of the money that went into
Focardi et al. I cannot understand why they did not employ a more robust,
believable and accurate method of calorimetry.
SK: For me, I always respect any person who is skeptical for whatever
reasons they want to be skeptical. That is their right, and in this case,
it is your right and I honor that.
I do however, as you have seen, take issue when you or others suggest or
insinuate when something has been "disproved" when, IMO, such is a
*fallacious* statement.
If you want reasons to reject, dismiss or ignore the multi-year,
multi-laboratory series of Piantelli-Focardi experiments*; claims of excess
heat, TRITIUM, NEUTRONS, GAMMAS, PARTICLE TRACKS....then go ahead - be my
guest. That's your choice, though it makes no scientific sense to me why
you would consciously want to do that or why it helps the field.
SK: Therefore, even if Piantelli-Focardi never responded, Cerron-Zeballos
never disproved Piantelli-Focardi.
JR: Cerron-Zeballos got the same results with the same configuration and
demonstrated that the calorimetery was wrong! What more do you want?
SK: You make some strong claims but you do so at your own peril. Question:
How is it that you know as fact that Cerron-Zeballos prepared the materials
precisely in the same manner as did Piantelli-Focardi? Question: How is it
that you know as fact that Cerron-Zeballos operated the experiment
precisely in the same manner as did Piantelli-Focardi? Question: Do you
take these things on faith, on the presumed good integrity and presumed
unbiased attitude of Cerron-Zeballos?
If it helps you gain some perspective, I remind you that Nate Lewis said
almost the same exact thing (same results with the same configuration) with
regard to Fleischmann and Pons 20 years ago, and he said it with the same
conviction as you are saying it about Piantelli-Focardi.
This is like saying that Miles never disproved Lewis, or that Fleischmann
never proved that the liquid cells in other people's labs are well mixed
by dropping dye into his own cell. All cells of the same shape and
description with similar power levels operate in similar ways. If one is
well mixed, they all are. If you can show that Mizuno and Cerron-Zeballos
got a null result that would be mistaken for excess heat by Focardi, then
you have effectively disproved Focardi . . . unless it can be shown that
the improvements in the next round really address the problem. I am not
sure they do.
The way I see it - (forgive me again for being so direct - no offense
intended but I don't beat want to beat around the bush) but here we have
one of the strongest excess heat results on record - and you are using the
same fallacious logic as that used by pathological skeptics.
This is not a strong result because it has not been independently
replicated yet, and because this kind of gas calorimetry is questionable.
Yes, I understand your point of view and I respect it. I've heard precisely
the same type of argument from Scott Little, Frank Close, John Huizenga. It
is a legitimate way for a person to dismiss claimed results - if they so
choose.
You should never get excited about a result until it is independently
replicated, and in this case until it is tested with some sort of envelope
calorimeter (flow or Seebeck) that captures all heat from the cell, rather
than measuring temperatures at a few locations.
Yes, I understand and agree. The Fleischmann-Pons melted Pd cube in 1989,
the Mizuno 8 litres of boiled water and the Piantelli-Focardi melted
stainless-steel thermometer would all be definitive indicators of excess
heat, but alas, they are all merely anecdotal. Furthermore, they are all
instances of disparate, unreproduced events that have nothing to do with
each other. Right?
I note your non-response to name your anonymous advisors with whom you
discussed and dismissed the Piantelli-Focardi results.
I note your non-response to present the specific scientific critique of
your anonymous advisors.
Your move.
Steve
*
Focardi S., Habel R., and Piantelli F.,
"<http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Focardi-AnomalousHeatNi-H-NuovoCimento.pdf>Anomalous
Heat Production in Ni-H Systems," Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 107A, p. 163-167,
(1994) Franco, Foresta Martin, "Siena scopre l' energia pulita Fusione
fredda all' italiana?," Corriere Della Sera, (Feb. 19, 1994) Notoya, R. et
al., "Tritium Generation and Large Excess Heat Evolution by Electrolysis in
Light and Heavy Water-Potassium Carbonate Solutions With Nickel
Electrodes," Fusion Technology, Vol. 26, p. 179, (Sept. 1994)
Sankaranarayanan, T.K., Srinivasan, M., Bajpai,
M.B., and Gupta, D.S., "Evidence for Tritium Generation in Self-Heated
Nickel Wires Subjected to Hydrogen Gas Absorption/Desorption Cycles,"
Proceedings of Fifth International Conference on Cold Fusion, Monte-Carlo,
Monaco: IMRA Europe, Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France, (1995) Focardi S.,
Gabbani V., Habel R., Montalbano V.,
Piantelli F. and Veronesi S., "Status of Cold Fusion in Italy," Siena
Workshop, Siena, 24-25 (March 1995) Focardi S., Gabbani V., Habel R.,
Montalbano V., Piantelli F. and Veronesi S., [paper name missing], Atti
Accad. Fisiocritici, Serie XV, Tomo XV p.109-115, (1996) Cerron-Zeballos,
E., Crotty, I., Hatzifotiadou, D., Lamas Valverde, J., Williams,
M.C.S., and Zibichi, A.,
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1996/1996Cerron-InvestigationOfAnomalous.pdf>"Investigation
of Anomalous Heat Production in Ni-H Systems," Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 109A, p.
1645-1654, (1996) Focardi S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F.,
and Veronesi, S., "Analisi Superficiale Con Mocrosonda X Delle Barrette
Metalliche Utilizzate Per La Produzione Anomala Di Energia Negli
Esperimenti Di Siena, Atti Acc. Fisiocritici Siena, Serie 15, Tomo 15, p.
109-115, (1996) Sankaranarayanan, T.K., Srinivasan, M., Bajpai, M.B., and
Gupta, D.S., "Investigation of Low-level Tritium
Generation in Ni-H2O Electrolytic Cells," Fusion Technology, Vol. 30, p.
349, (1996) Focardi, S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F. and
Veronesi, S., "On the Ni-H System," Asti Workshop in Hydrogen-
/Deuterium-Loaded Metals, (27-30 November 1997) Focardi S., Gabbani V.,
Habel R., Montalbano V., Piantelli F. and Veronesi S., [paper name
missing], Asti Workshop on Anomalies in Hydrogen/DeuteriumLoaded Metals,
Asti, (27-30 November 1997)
Focardi, S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F. and Veronesi, S.,
"<http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1998/1998FocardiS-LargeExcessHeatProductionNiH.pdf>Large
Excess Heat Production in Ni-H Systems," Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 111A, p.
1233-1242, (1998)
Mengoli, G., Bernardini, M., Manducchi, C., and Zannoni, G.,
"<http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1998/1998MengoliG-AnomalousHeatEffects-w.pdf>Anomalous
Heat Effects Correlated With Electrochemical Hydriding of Nickel," Il Nuovo
Cimento, Vol. 20 D, p. 331-352, (1998) Battaglia, A., Daddi, L., Focardi,
S., Gabbani, V.,
Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F., Sona, P.G., and nesi, S.,
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1999/1999BattagliaA-NeutronEmissionNiH.pdf>"Neutron
Emission in Ni-H Systems," Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 112 A p. 921-931, (Sept.
1999) Campari, E. G., Focardi, S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli,
F., Porcu, E., Tosti E. and Veronesi, S., "Ni-H Systems," Proceedings of
the 8th Conference on Cold Fusion, p. 69-74, (2000) Focardi, S. and
Piantelli, F., "Produzione Di Energia E Reazioni Nucleari In Sistemi Ni-H A
400 C," XIX Congresso Nazionale UIT, 2000+? Campari, E., Focardi, S.,
Gabbani, V.,
Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F., and Veronesi, S.,
"<http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2004/2004CampariEGoverviewOfH-NiSystems.pdf>Overview
of H-Ni Systems: Old Experiments and New Setup," 5th Asti Workshop on
Anomalies in Hydrogen- / Deuterium-Loaded Metals, Asti, Italy, (2004)
Campari, E.G., Focardi, S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F., and
Veronesi, F., "Surface Analysis of Hydrogen-Loaded Nickel Alloys,"
Proceedings of the Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter
Nuclear Science, Marseille, France, (2004) Focardi, S., Gabbani, V.,
Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F. and
Veronesi, S., Focardi, S., et al. "Evidence of Electromagnetic Radiation
From Ni-H Systems," Proceedings of the Eleventh International Conference
on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, Marseille, France, (2004)
