Daniele Passerini from "22passi" blog interviewed again Andrea Rossi on
February 13th. This is the original link:
And this is an English translation courtesy of PESN, edited by Hank
Mills from a Google translation:
* * *
Lets get some clarity.
Last Monday I had the opportunity to meet Ing. Andrea Rossi for a second
interview, this time face to face, in order to collect new details about
his invention. I have recorded over 30 minutes of questions and answers
that in the days following the interview I summarized in the following
text. On the basis of a gentleman's agreement I also was given a number
of clarifications, off record and confidential, which reinforce my
belief that people - and there are many- that think this has something
to do with a hoax are like a half mule and half ostrich.
22PASSI - Congratulations Mr. Rossi, the news of the invention of the
E-Cat has been prominent in Greece where the Newco that assumes
responsibility for it's production and marketing, Defkalion Green
Technologies of Athens, is located. I imagine that Prof. Christos E.
Stremmenos has to be played as a sponsor, who was an opponent of the
regime of the colonels, former Ambassador of Greece to Rome, Professor
of Physics at the University of Athens, and practically a national hero
in Greece. In Italy the media have largely ignored the news and
discussed it only on the web, often bitterly. The questions that I'm
inspired to ask address the doubts and criticisms that I have picked up
on the internet. For example, a very controversial question is if the
E-Cat can be considered safe.
ROSSI - The 10-kW modules we produce are safe and for years now we have
been testing and using them with no problems. All possible measures of
radiation from the reactor have been taken and the modules have always
demonstrated the utmost safety. We control it as we want, switching it
on and switching it off and we get power on and power off. It can never
exceed a certain power because we have designed it so that there can be
no Nickel-Hydrogen reaction above the safety limits and, above all,
there is no radiation outside of the reactor significantly over the
background level. It is true that with our current state of knowledge we
do not know what would happen if we started scaling up the reactor from
10KW to 1000KW. In fact, we take care not to do so. To obtain higher
power production we combine the modules in series and parallel, as if
they were batteries. A 10 KW reactor connecting in parallel increases
the amount of energy produced at a constant temperature and putting them
in series multiplies the amount of energy produced at increasing
temperature, because you multiply the TD. Combining the two
architectures, parallel and series, you can get what you want and stay
strictly in the same safety parameters.
22PASSI - We always talk about thermal power, right?
ROSSI - yes, when converting to other forms of energy there will be a
loss of efficiency. In the Carnot cycle efficiency is usually between
30% and 35% depending on the efficiency of the system, this means that
if we convert 1MW of thermal power we can get 300-350 kW electric and
22PASSI - Then we could produce both heat and electricity at the same time..
ROSSI - With the Carnot cycle this is so. Of course nothing is created
and nothing is destroyed: the energy balance should be 100. However, if
out of 100KW of heat 35 KW of heat was converted into electricity and
the other 65KW of heat remained, then you would lose a few percentage
points in conversion. In summary, if the E-Cat provides only thermal
power directly, only a heat exchanger is needed and you're done. If you
need electricity only a portion of the thermal energy can be transformed
into electricity, but you will also have the heat that remains.
22PASSI. Then a small village of 50-100 families with a 1 MW unit could
be made more energy independent in terms of heating and electricity.
ROSSI. Ah yes, this certainly.
22PASSI - If I understand correctly, once enough power is given to the
reactor to ignite (in Bologna there was talk of 1-2kW), in this setup
the machine might operate autonomously, without a power outlet or
battery as the power input (on the order of 0.4 kW / h) is well within
the approximately 3.5 kW electricity obtainable.
ROSSI - Certainly. There remains, however, the problem of the drive
(control system) that is still a little more complex: each reactor has
implemented an electrical drive for safety reasons and much be attached
to a current line. Precisely because of these controls, we can ensure
that there are no safety problems inherent in our E-Cat from 10 kW, as
well in our unit from 1MW, consisting of 100 reactors from 10kW each of
which has its own control system. From 10 kW to 1MW we are able to
maintain the level of safety gained.
22PASSI - the fact remains that there is still a scientific explanation
of what happens inside the machine. If you do not know this how can you
be sure you can control the reactor in every condition, even the most
ROSSI - Well, first of all we have a pretty good idea of the theoretical
reasons why the machine works. Many things remain to be specified and we
are working in collaboration with the University of Bologna. But you
see, even in the normal combustion of wood exactly what happens in
reality, nobody knows. That is all the various and successive reactions
that occur between the chemical formulation of departure and the
chemical formulation of the final products of combustion we do not know
exactly. However, designing combustion chambers in terms of safety is
possible because you know what is the initial situation and what is the
final situation. All of the security measures result from this. So, for
example, we use more shielding than what would be sufficient, and we get
a surplus of security as it is used in any plant.
22PASSI - This means that the gamma rays that Prof. Villa has reported
found during the experiment on January 14, were simply not well shielded
and made it out of the machine?
ROSSI - With the University of Bologna we will proceed to do in-depth
work on the range of radiation. The range of radiation that exists is
necessary, because if it were not there, we would not have energy. It is
a problem not only of shielding but also positioning counters. There are
the greatest prudence in this moment on this point, at least until the
patent will be approved. We have made internal measurements of the range
of radiation produced, but we try to ensure that others do not, because
measuring the range of radiation gets - as if to say - the fingerprint
of everything that's inside the reactor.
22PASSI - What did you say to Celani during the press conference of
ROSSI - Yes, why at one point I asked him politely (to Professor Celani)
to turn off his meter is just that I know how smart... until I saw that
it was checking into whether there was some trick I have left to do,
because in a nutshell its purpose, with the machine that was brought,
was to check if we had hidden inside the reactor any radioactive
substance that was the real source of heat. In this case the issuance of
the range of radiation would have been constant and precise, while in
the case of the range of radiation that was measured there it was a
discontinuous emission, crackling, what Celani encountered.
22PASSI - Forgive me if I repeat, this seems a fairly controversial
issue, but how do you reconcile the statement that you have a fairly
accurate idea of what is happening inside the machine with the fact that
at the time the first theoretical model was formulated Focardi denied
his lack of Gamma (I am referring to the report Prof. Villa)?
ROSSI - In a nutshell for very nicely measuring the range of radiation
we should create a 360 degree hole in the reactor to allow the meter to
read what's happening there. But what that implies is giving away the
technology completely in the hands of a person prepared to interpret the
data. To design the systems security anti spy technology of this kind is
not enough to surround himself with collaborators honest and like ... I
myself, Andrea, would be in crisis if someone were to say "we will give
you a figure that will change your life overnight and your next five
generations in return for telling us..." An offer of this kind would
severely test even the honesty of a Saint.
22PASSI - Then let me ask you how you would react if they were to make
you the same offer to never produce the E-Cat?
ROSSI - One must be in the situation to know how you would answer... But
I can tell you that this project is my life and for me is priceless.
22PASSI - Let's go back to the reasons for your caution, we are talking
about secrets of the other elements in addition to the nickel and
hydrogen involved in the reaction? This is what would be revealed due to
a thorough analysis of the range of the radioactive spectrum, right?
ROSSI - Of course, just that.. the composition of the powder inside of
the machine is the essence of the reaction, because using only nickel
and hydrogen nothing comes out. So what compromise did we make? I had to
put Professor Villa's counters in a second position and angle that I
thought could be safe, to see something but not too much, but I was so
careful that eventually the counters did not pick up anything. This is
22PASSI - Can you tell us at which point of the patent process is this
technology? You are in the finishing straight yes or no?
ROSSI - I think yes, although of course the only certainty I have is
when our lawyers (the Study Cicogna of Milan) will inform us the happy
ending. I heard the lawyer. Stork a week ago for clarification, after
the nuclear chemist Camillo Franchini had leaked the news that our
patent was rejected in a bad way. The lawyer replied that he should have
been warned first if this really happened, it has controlled half an
hour later he phoned me reassuring me that those rumors were just crap!
Evidently, Camillo Franchini was referring to disputes concerning the
first phase of the trial in the Patent Office.
22PASSI - When one makes a machine like this and wants to put it on the
market beyond the approval of the patent what other permits do you need?
Could a problem arise due to the fact there is still not a theoretical
ROSSI - So, our client has already obtained the Greek permissions for
the machine to be produced. For safety reasons we must provide
scientific proof of the fact that the plant does not give rise to
emissions of radiation and work in controlled conditions of pressure to
stay within certain energies. The moment we show that we can perfectly
control the pressure and temperature of the process, we will have no
more problems. Lets go back to the example of combustion, as we said
before: no one knows exactly what happens. Not only that, I'l tell you
more, how atoms work, no one really knows if she takes one of the most
recent testing of atomic models, the Marhoon, there is a chapter where
you read "may be so, but might not be so." If the lack of a theoretical
model would be a reason not to authorize the E Cat then at this point
many machines used in nuclear medicine should not be permitted. For
example, a PET (Positron Emission Tomography) machine, is theoretically,
a very dangerous machine. How to work exactly the nuclear reactions that
lead to the operation of these machines do not know for the simple fact
no one knows how the nucleus of an atom functions. CERN has made that
immense ring just to try and start to truly understand how atoms are
made, because they do not know. But the PET using the same, regardless
of the theoretical aspect (which is far from clear) you know the
radiation that comes out during a scan and that the danger is under
control. The same thing we do: the radiation coming out of our reactor
is perfectly controlled, we have made thousands of measurements, we have
made with the same experts who make the controls on the machines used in
22PASSI - I guess the day when the nuclear physicists and chemists will
find a scientific model to explain what is happening inside of the
machine at that point will be implemented and developed. We are just at
the beginning of a new technology, like the first internal combustion
engines of more than a century ago compared to today.
ROSSI - Absolutely. the example is right: in 1905 to assume an internal
combustion engine that produced the power of hundreds of horses would be
pure utopia, they would say "you are crazy, this shit here is a bomb."
Let's say that today we have scaled the machine to be secure in
proportion to the knowledge we have. A century ago, the chemistry of
combustion of oil in the cylinders was largely unknown, but the engine
turned and they were sure, because at those powers of a few horsepower
there was no problem.
22PASSI - We change subject, at the end you have chosen to produce
abroad instead of in Italy does not surprise me ...
ROSSI - No, in Italy, I will not do anything, apart from the research.
Today I find myself in Italy because I'm working with the University of
Bologna, otherwise I would be in the United States.
22PASSI - This I wanted to ask you. Why not in Greece and in the Unites
States where there most activity on the technology is?
ROSSI - In the US we have a factory producing reactors. In Greece there
is a Newco owned by large European companies working in the field of
energy. There are proposals and we have a contract...
22PASSI - One moment, this had escaped me. Are you telling me that there
will be a factory in Greece and another in the United States?
Yes, that escaped, the United States there is already a factory. The
reactors that have been produced now and the first units of the 1MW
plant are being built in the plant we have in the United States.
22PASSI - So the unit of 1MW that will be presented in October will be
built in the US and brought to Greece?
ROSSI - Exactly. In Greece, we are now preparing the plant that will
produce for the European market, I suppose, but that will depend on what
the board of Defkalion Green Technologies decides.
22PASSI - At this point can you tell us who are the investors from
Europe and the USA?
ROSSI - I'm sorry, they want to remain anonymous. We do not work to
satisfy the curiosity of people, but work to produce machines that work
and respect the will of those who put up the capital. I can only add
that they clearly know very well all the secrets of the machine and is
precisely why they decided to invest in it.
22PASSI - Confirms that the first customers will be private industries
ROSSI - Absolutely Yes. Also, because back to the discussion about
safety, it is one thing to obtain permission to use these devices in an
industrial situation, where there are adequate facilities and equipment
and specialized personnel. An account is a house hold appliance that is
bought at any department store and put in any apartment. It is evident
that both technological development and approvals and certifications
necessary to produce the appliance will involve much more time to be
finalized and implemented. The industrial one is great because you have
an industrial structure with employees trained to do maintenance and
control. It is when you go to the home of Mrs. Mary that the approval
becomes more difficult from an authorization standpoint, because there
is not a person or an expert. Inside the E-Cat nuclear reactions still
occur, even when not in use or manufactured with radioactive materials,
or better, isotopes are produced with very short decay time, a half-life
22PASSI - In short, the limit for now is how small, not how large. But
this means that as you bring together elements from 10KW to derive units
of 1MW at the same time you could put together units from 1MW to obtain
higher power? To make a 100 megawatt power station by hundreds of, for
ROSSI - Certainly. The unit of 1MW are 100 units of 10kW. At that point
units of 1MW can be put together how we want.
22PASSI. It is science fiction to imagine that 50 years from now there
will be a domestic cold fusion boiler in each apartment?
ROSSI - It could happen in less than a decade. It would be subject to
authorization issues much more complex like we said before, but that has
already been exceeded for industrial plants under construction.
22PASSI. 22PASSI. Yes, but there is a middle ground very interesting in
my opinion: the district heating. Already today there are entire
neighborhoods that are using a single boiler. The infrastructure is
already pretty packed, just replace the unit for natural gas with a cold
ROSSI Certainly, this is feasible as of now, because we are still in the
field of industrial application, even if the end use is residential, not
going to put a device into an apartment like a TV or a microwave oven
waves, in homes run only the hot water pipes produced by a power with
all the safety standards that are needed. It is exactly what they will
do in Greece, where they are most interested in that the electric heat.
22PASSI. We confirm that the costs declared at a press conference in
Bologna, that is € 2000 per kW for the purchase of the plant and 1 cent
per kW / h?
ROSSI. No, these figures are in dollars and cents, when it comes to euro
prices are lower, depending on the current exchange rate of course. I
remember now a kW from traditional energy sources is about 13-14 cents.