On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ** > Joshua Cude wrote: > > You only get a stable water/steam mixture in a closed vessel (a teapot). >> >> > > Why? If it takes say 1 kW to raise the temperature of the flowing water > to 100C, and then you supply 1.5 kW (using only and electric heater), then > only part of the flowing water will get converted to steam, and you will > have to have a mixture of liquid and gas coming out. > > > It is hard to arrange things so it transfers just enough heat to bring the > temperature up to boiling, and boils some of the water in the time it takes > the water to transit the hot surface. You can get it below that a little, or > above it, but manually adjusting the flow rate or input power just right to > hit that level is tough. > What are you on about. We can calculate the heat needed to bring the water to the boiling point. I was suggesting we exceed it by 50%. There's nothing hard about that, and no computers are needed. > > It usually ends up at ~95°C, as I said. That's what you see in data from > people who run flow calorimetry close to boiling. > I was talking about running it above boiling, but way below the level needed to boil it all. Different thing. And it's easy. The power can range within a factor of 7. In this case, anywhere between 600W and about 5 kW. Let's look at the facts here: > > 1. Rossi did not adjust the flow at all. Krivit would have said if he did. > We don't know that, but it's not relevant to this discussion. > 2. Rossi did not adjust the input power. Krivit would seen this, too. > Again, we don't know that, and again it's not relevant. > 3. The video shows some steam coming out of the 3 m hose. > 4. Input power was ~800 W. > 5. The flow rate was ~7 L/h = ~1.9 g/s > OK. > > So the only way for Rossi to make it produce a little steam and a lot of > hot water would be for him to adjust the anomalous heat output. > Wrong. As you showed, only 600 W is needed to bring the water to the boiling point.That leaves 200W to produce a little steam and a lot of hot water. > It would be a miracle if Rossi has such good control over the anomalous > heat that he can push the temperature up to 99°C and have mostly liquid > water go through plus a little steam. > I don't get your problem. The electrical power raises the water to 100C and produces a little steam on top of it. Simple so far. You can argue that the steam coming out represents more than 200W worth of steam, and therefore that the reactor must have contributed some heat. But there is no fine control needed for this. The more heat it produces, the more steam you would get. Nothing at all magic is needed here. And my guess is that the Ni-H produces a little chemical heat, but the evidence for even that is not convincing. I still think Rossi could easily have adjusted the power (and less likely the flow) without Krivit noticing. I also think his claim of the flow is wrong based on the esowatch evidence. > I realize you do not think there is any anomalous heat. You think the > electric power input balances the heat output. > Then you haven't read my posts. I have frequently allowed the possibility of some heat production in the reactor; a few hundred watts seems to fit some of the data. That is barely possible with this test, assuming you can magically transfer > all of the heat to the water without heating the vessel. > It's not magic to transfer nearly all the heat to the water. The vessel gets hot sure, but it doesn't radiate much with all that insulation around it. Once it reaches equilibrium temperature, then the input heat goes to the water, or to radiation from the insulation. > But in previous tests the input power was lower and the water temperature > would only be 60°C so there must have been anomalous heat. > Right. I've addressed those too. There are 3 obvious possibilities. The power is higher than claimed, the flow is lower than claimed, or the device produces a little chemical heat. It's really only needed in the E&K run, and then only about 300 W. > Without tricks, there had to be anomalous heat in previous test runs, as I > said. > In the E&K run, without tricks or mistakes, it seems the reactor would have to produce a few hundred watts, yes. I've said this many times. But a few hundred watts does not convincingly exclude chemical heat. In the Lewan runs, less than 100 W were needed, if any at all. In the January run, I cannot exclude mistakes, because they are too obvious. The claimed flow rate exceeded the pump specs by a factor of 2. (Even Levi made such obvious mistakes in his written report as claiming the temperature was at 100C for 40 minutes, when it was only 18 minutes; it is hard to trust anything from that run.) But if you use the max flow rate of the pump, then no additional power from the reactor is needed to explain the data. > And with this run, ~800 W input and 1.9 ml/s flow rate, assuming not one > joule of heat radiated from the cell and it remained miraculously at room > temperature . . . > > 800 W = 190 calories per second. To bring 1.9 g from 25°C to 99°C takes 140 > calories. That leaves 50 calories to vaporize some of the remaining water: > 0.09 grams, to be exact. Not much! I don't think you could see 0.09 g/s of > vapor. Do you? > Well, it represents about 150 mL of steam per second. But no, I have already said that the steam does seem to exceed what would be provided from the claimed electrical power (I do wish you would read what I write; I read your stuff). So, as with the other runs, I am suspicious of the numbers. Rossi doesn't make them obvious enough. In the Krivit run, the pump frequency and photos of the pump suggest the flow rate was half what he claimed. That means only 300 W would be needed to bring the water to the boiling point leaving 500 W to produce steam. That begins to look reasonable. Then, if you throw in a little from chemical heat in the ecat, and everything makes sense. > In real life we know the cell got hot. It would have to get hot. > Right there is 800 W of electrical power going in. > There is no chance any of the water would vaporize with only ~800 W input. > You would not any steam at all. Even with this high input power, any steam > at all is proof there is anomalous heat. > What are you talking about. You just did the calculation yourself showing that it takes only 3/4 of that (600W) to bring the water to the boiling point. If you are putting 800W into the cell, and the only way you are taking it out is with water, some of the water would vaporize. Rossi is claiming these things produce multi-kW, but only a few hundred watts are enough to explain all the quoted data. You're saying even those few hundred watts prove a nuclear effect, and maybe if they ran it long enough there would be something, if all the numbers were really nailed down with credible observers. But if it's really nuclear, why is this experiment, just like all CF experiments, in this pergatory, where it's even possible to quibble day after day? Why is there never enough power to make it obvious, and better, to power itself?
