At 04:49 PM 7/21/2011, Damon Craig wrote:
I find your statements bewildering.
Projection of internal state onto external reality.
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
<<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote:
There are some pretty sloppy statements. I know that Damon is being
sarcastic, but that sarcasm is based on certain understandings.
Let's be more careful, everyone!
At 05:41 AM 7/21/2011, Damon Craig wrote:
The greatest souce of pressure is the water standing in the hose.
Probably not, but it's significant. First of all, what are the
starting conditions? Before the heating is started, the hose is full
of water, that water is flowing. From the Krivit video, perhaps from
others, the elevation of the hose above the floor can be estimated.
(For those who haven't looked, the hose is not in a "sink," it is in
a "sink drain," i.e, a hole in the wall where a sink might be installed.
You are wrong. If you can point to another source of backpressure,
please do so. In one demonstration the hose ran into a sink in
another room in my recollection.
If the hose *end* rises above the E-Cat, this will create
overpressure. It's not "back pressure." Back pressure will result
from resistance to flow.
In the Krivit video, you can see that the hose is stick into the
wall, into a drain fitting for a sink that has not been installed.
The initial condition, after the pump is started and water is flowing
out the hose: The hose end is inside the drain. The levels involved
are this: the level of the E-Cat is highest. Then the hose goes down
to the floor and runs into the next room and up to the drain, it's
stuck into the drain there. This is below the level of the E-Cat
The hose will not, as I stated earlier, fill entirely with water, the
flow rate is too low. Rather it will fill to the level of the drain.
Above the drain there will be air in the hose. The pump rate is not
high enough, I believe, to remove that air. So there is no water head
at all, the air pressure will be atmospheric. However, there is some
head from the water level at the level of the hose outlet, down to
where the thermometer bulb sits.
There is no pressure from water standing in the hose, per se.
The source of significant pressure in the E-Cat is from the evolution of steam.
If the hose end loops up 12 inches to dump into a bucket. There is
a head of water was the hose decends to the floor from the device
of 12 inches. The steam must push down upon this head to escape
raising the pressure in the device.
That is, to put it mildly, pucky. The elevation of the hose, to this
level, is irrelevant. The weight of the water in the hose will
reduce the pressure, were it not for the flow. Steam will *allow*
increased flow of the water. The pressure in the chamber will be
*reduced* by the water head from the difference in elevation between
the chamber and the water level in the bucket. With no boiling,
there is a contrary effect, increased pressure caused by the pump
with its fixed flow rate. That flow rate through the outlet orifice
will increase the pressure in the chamber. Only a little, I think.
The elevation is relevant to determining the back pressure. Evolving
steam must push down on this head whether the water is flowing or not.
The concept of "pushing down on this head" is where the pucky is. If
the "head" is below the E-Cat, this head will actually be sucking on
the interior of the E-Cat. But at equilibrium, if air can flow into
the end of the hose, then air will rise and water will flow out the
hose beside the rising air, leading to an equalization of levels. The
hose will be filled to the level of the drain, in the Krivit case. In
that case there is no head.
But in the bucket case, it is negative head, if the water level in
the hose is higher than the water level in the bucket.
See the Lewan video. In the sound track you can hear the steam
rising through the water column when the camera focuses on the hose exit.
It would be nice if someone would post the link, if they have it
handy when they are writing here!
There is an additional head from the submurged hose end in the
bucket. Add these to the submersion depth of the thermocouple and
there's plenty of added pressure to acount for 100.4 C, or whatever
it takes to cause general confusion.
Seems confusion can be caused with very little effort, or maybe even
no effort at all.
If it rises 30" to dump into a sink, think of all the free energy
that's gotta be there because the steam looks so much hotter. If the
exit is moved to the roof, you get even more free energy.
There isn't any sink. The hose in the Krivit demo goes down to the
floor, then rises to a sink drain. That's maybe 35 cm from the
floor, a very rough estimate. Since the sink drain is below the
table where the E-Cat is sitting, this will reduce the pressure in
the E-Cat, not increase it.
Yes, in the Krivit video it runs into a sink. In the Levan video a
blue bucket. Not all these demos were in the same place that I am aware of.
In both cases the hose leads to a lower level.
No, what increases the pressure in the E-Cat would be two sources:
pump pressure and steam pressure.
Yes, steam pressure. This is elementry physics. It can't be all that
hard to figure out.
Both. The steam pressure is the larger factor, almost certainly,
unless there is lots of liquid water flowing out.
Stop the pump, and with no boiling, the pressure in an E-Cat with an
outlet hose full of water, leading down to a drain pipe, will be
below atmospheric pressure, by the relevant head. If you were to
open the steam escape valve at that point, air would flow in, not out.
What does "leading down to a drain pipe" mean? If it leads down, any
water drains out of the hose and the pressure in the water jacket
will be at ambient pressure.
In the Krivit video, the hose leads down to a drain pipe, presumably
a tee or el, the drain is much larger than the hose. I was incorrect
here, because the hose will not be full of water unless steps were
taken to make that happen. Water will not drain out of the hose
unless air is admitted to the inside of the E-Cat; the hose goes down
to the floor from the drain, across the floor, and up to the E-Cat.
From initial conditions, there will be air in the hose above the
level of the drain, the hose will be full only at the drain end, back
up to the level of the drain on the E-Cat side.
Later, if steam has been evolved for some time, conditions will be
different. If water is being pumped, then the water level at the
E-cat side may be a bit higher than at the drain end.
I believe that in every case, the hose from the E-Cat was drained to
a level below the E-Cat. If the end of the hose went into a sink at a
higher level, yes, the hose would fill with water to that level and
there would be water head from it.
