We disagree, lets leave it at that John. We reached an impasse that can not be breached so until that is resolved, we can not move forward in this discussion.
Dave -----Original Message----- From: John Berry <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Time Dilation impossibility On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:59 PM, David Roberson <[email protected]> wrote: >Ok, so time dilation must have occurred for the muon, it moved through the >reference frame of the lab and lasted longer because of it. But the Muon was not conscious, carried no instrumentation and surely had no evidence to offer to indicate that it observed time was seeming to occur more swiftly for it than for the lab.< In my model, the muon did not consider that its life time was any different than at complete rest. It was not time dilated as far as it was concerned. You missed my point, I did not say the muon should observe it's own time to slow down, I said that SR would expect the muon to see the lab as moving at near the speed of light, and it would expect (in SR) to see the lab's clock to be running slow. The only ones measuring the muon time dilation are the observers on Earth. Yes, and what is observing the muons view of how time passes in the Lab? frame No one. Unless muons are conscious but it would be dead, perhaps a seance for the muon could be carried out? To make matters worse, you get the right answer if you consider the muon as observing length contraction of the path that it takes. Then, I had time dilation for one observer and length contraction for the other to contend with. Each process gave a valid seeming answer. I was looking for a hole in SR, but came up empty. Only then did I realize that the operation of the LHC also matched these two nasty calculations. Back to ground zero. Only if you want to accept something logically impossible and indefensible. Time dilation and or length contraction are concepts that originally occurred to those considering movement relative to an aether. So it makes far more sense to consider this proof of something that can exist, the aether, than proof of something that can't (all frames being equal and experiencing unequal time dilation equally). John
