Interesting arguments Alan. I hope Eric does not begrudge me an answer to this and I hope he does not accuse me of excessive posts as this would only be my third posts in 3 days. Besides this have interesting scientific implications for the metaphysical.
Since, you agree that 100 million is the upper limit of the finite number of Angels, I will not discuss that part anymore. So, let me address how a multidimensional being would appear in our finite 3.5 Dimension reality. Let's examine this idea of how a multidimensional being could manifest itself in our 3.5 dimension. Obviously we can only infer how this would occur because our understanding is limited to 3.5 dimensions. But let's examine how a 3 dimensional object would appear in a 2 dimensional world. Suppose you have a 3D sphere and you drop it thru a piece of paper. As the sphere touches the 2D world, it would first appear as a microscopic dot then grow into a bigger circle until the circle reaches the diameter of the sphere at which point it will become a smaller circle again until it vanishes as a microscopic dot. The behavior of the manifestation of that circle in 2D space would still be governed by the 1/2 component of the 4th Dimension of time. In other words, it will still be manifested as some change in time moving into the future, but not backwards in time. Hence, the 2D world is actually a 2.5D world. The point is, any observation of an object that exist in higher dimensions will always be limited by the number dimensions of the observer. A 2.5D observer can not observe a 3.5D sphere as a sphere but only as slices of the sphere as it appears in his 2.5D world If a creature such as angels that exists in more than 3.5 dimensions appear in our 3.5D world, how would thy appear to us? It seems evident that they must of necessity appear as 3.5D creatures. Following the analogy above, it seems that that angel must appear as 3D slices of his upper-D stucture. Hence, he can appear as somethng as small as a microscopic dot or as big as his actual size. But that is only assuming that that angel does not "disrobe" from its own Habitation. and incarnates itself into human 3.5D flesh. That of course is possible as Jesus incarnated himself as 3.5D human flesh. The word habitation deserves it own special discussion, as this would be crucial in the understanding of the nature of Angels. The Bible says that man was created a "little lower" than the angels. So, I believe angels too, have a body, and a spirit where their consciousness dwell - just like man. We are a "liitle lower" because we are confined to 3.5 dimensions while an angel may exist in say 4.5 dimensions or more, but definitely not in 10 dimensions (assuming that 10 dimensions is the number of dimensions). The reason why I say they are less than 10 dimensions is because it is possible for them to be confined. For example, it is possible for them to chained - or to be exiled from heaven and prevented from going there. Hence, they exist in a dimensions that are lower than these other places. Angels too are limited to the 1/2 component of the time dimension because they can not go back in time. Only the Godhead can move back in time as the Godhead exist outside of time. God exists outside of the 10 dimensions including time. Otherwise, he can not create time if he was part of time. (God does not just have lots of time, he is outside of time.) Now, back to the word "habitation", there are at least two words that may be translated Habitation: "oiketerion" and "katoiketerion". The following verses illustrate the difference. Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Rev_18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. The word habitation in Rev 18:2 is "katoiketerion". It means the abode or dwelling. The word in Jud 1:6 is "oiketerion", It means the body of the angels because that verse itself distinguishes it from location. It uses the word "estate" to indicate the angels position or location and differentiates it from "oiketerion" to indicate his body. Jude says that some angels gave up their "estate" (position/location) and their "habitation" (Multidimension Body) to become 3.5D human forms (Gen 6:1-5). If one moves from multidimension to 3 dimensions, one is "giving up" something - that is the context of Jude 1:6. So, it seems clear that angels are multidimensional beings. And as multidimensional beings they can manifest in our 3.5D world as small as microscopic dot. How small is that dot? I don't know, but the reasoning that they can be as small as the Planck size is reasonable, since our world is digitzed at the Planck size. Hence, it would make sense that the smallest manifestation they can have would be the Planck size. Hence, even if Angels can not occupy the same space and time as I originally speculated, they can still be as small as the Planck size, hence 100 million of them would still fit on the head of a pin. Regarding dancing, I was referring to carnal dancing that our generation indulges in. Angels have no need nor desire to engage in carnal dancing, (at least the non-fallen ones). Jojo ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Fletcher To: [email protected] ; [email protected] Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Absurdity of Darwinian Evolution. At 07:55 PM 8/29/2014, Jojo Iznart wrote: Thus, Angels are in fact multi-dimensional creatures. They can come and go into our dimension, assume any shape they like in our dimension So far, so good. and can occupy the same space at the same time in our dimension. That's not clear at all. First, God (I'll capitalize it as a proper noun) is described (not in the bible) as omnipitent (all powerful), omnipresent (everywhere, presumably at the same time), and eternal. But "eternal" means that he lasts for ever, not that he can move backwards and forwards in time. Your statement about angel's "habitation" implies that they exist in a finite volume of n-space and, like God, move only forward in time. Likewise, their penetration into a volume of our 3-space is a finite 3-space volume. Therefore your argument that they take up a zero 3-space volume is invalid (or 2-space, if we restrict the solution to the surface of the head of a pin). It may be at the planck scale, but it's still a volume or area. I do agree that the finite number of angels (100+ million) provides a practical upper limit. For example, we could say (and I'm picking these numbers out of the air), that 100 Billion people could stand in a thousand-square mile area -- but the actual number is limited by the world's population. I see no evidence that angels, NOT being omnipresent, can occupy the same volume of n-space, so the exclusion principal applies: they must occupy separate volumes in n-space and, as a sub-set, in 3-space. Next, we come to standing or dancing. The Bible has nothing to say about whether heavenly beings dance or not, but some human dancing is endorsed (and some is declaimed.). But I cannot conceive of a heaven filled with the sound of musical instruments, and the listeners of that celestial movement being required to stand still. In any case, you argue that the 3-D size of an angel is vanishingly small. It will most likely also be subject to a N-dimensional Heisenberg uncertainty principal. By setting their velocity to zero (no dancing) you set the uncertainty of their position to infinity, so you can no longer claim with certainty that they are ON the head of the pin.
