Hi Michael When you install updates, or the main system itself, there’s a huge screen of Terms of Conditions. I’m sure it’s listed there,…(I’ve never personally sat down and read them all, but it does cover pretty much everything Apple, iCloud etc from what I’m aware). And with every update that gets downloaded, there are links for more info. For example,..if someone was to download macOS Sierra then the features are listed for iCloud Drive. For more info, it takes you to Apple’s website, which has more info. Also, from the Mac App Store it has a link to a whole lot of information about it’s Privacy to do with it. http://www.apple.com/au/privacy/ Any time you click an “Agree” button it’s saying there you’ve read all the Terms and Conditions and understand it all. (and generally most people don’t). Every install as a huge page of them. (most people click “Next” etc and skip through them all. When a computer is first set up, (or you download a major update), all those Terms and Conditions are there. And each “partial” upgrade also has a page of them as well. So when you installed the system that had iCloud, the Terms and Conditions would have been there, as part of the installation to install iCloud. (as part of the whole Operating System). Depending on which iCloud Drive you’re referring to, as it’s slightly different in macOS Sierra, as it is to El Capitan as it is to Yosemite……… but it’s not all your “stuff” that goes up there (bar macOS Sierra Documents and Desktop), but you always have the facility to save them and keep them when turning it off. (In macOS SIerra it redownloads all the files).
“Other devices” you would own. The only way it can be used is with the AppeID, so unless you’re giving that to other people then obviously it’s only going to be your devices. Following your example. If you bought a new computer with macOS Sierra, when you’re installing it one of the first or second (or maybe third, I can’t remember off the top of my head) is a massive window of lots of text with all the Terms and Conditions relating to the use of the computer and Apple software and iCloud and anything thing else relating to the Apple environment etc,..). Those same terms and conditions that every single software person or hardware person lets you click past when you install anything. So it’s not just Apple, it’s everything you install - it’s that huge page of Terms and Conditions that everyone clicks “I Agree” to and never reads (OK, maybe some people do, generally most people don’t. And to be honest, I think if some people thought about it, even in life when a massive contract is given to them, they skim read it all before signing it. Not everyone reads every single word and line of text in a written contract,…..they “assume” it’s all correct, and the same as what they’re wanting to get into/purchase/open a bank account/etc etc). Otherwise there’d be a lot less court cases I’m sure,….lol). Also with macOS Sierra, when you first sign in iCloud brings up a window asking you if you want all your Documents and Desktop items to be stored in iCloud “to access from all your devices”. These are tick boxes people have the choice to tick or untick. (again, if not explained to them or go and read up on what these features are, then they may not realise what it does.). Apple don’t “take control” of your Documents. They really don’t care. And at any point you can untick it to get it all back (in macOS SIerra etc). (You may want to read that privacy link from above). I know I personally would rather my data with Apple then say Google,….. But again, it’s a choice. People have the option to use it or not use it at the end of the day………. Apple don’t force them into anything…. On that note, I’ve spent more time on this of my holiday time then I wanted,…so that’s my last piece on it. :)) Kind regards Daniel Sent from my iPhone 7 --- Daniel Kerr MacWizardry Phone: 0414 795 960 Email: <daniel AT macwizardry.com.au> Web: <http://www.macwizardry.com.au> **For everything Apple** NOTE: Any information provided in this email may be my personal opinion and as such should be taken accordingly, and may not be the views of MacWizardry. Any information provided does not offer or warrant any form of warranty or accept liability. It would be appreciated that if any information in this email is to be disseminated, distributed or copied, that permission by the author be requested. > On 2 Jan 2017, at 3:45 pm, Michael Hawkins <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Daniel, > I've never used iCloud other than for its find my phone function and find my > Mac function and doubt that I ever will, thumb drives will do for me. > > I don't remember seeing terms, conditions, caveats or warnings. All I'm aware > of is if I go to system preferences then select iCloud and tick the box for > iCloud Drive, a list of programs/apps come up on the screen along with a > statement to the effect that they'll be saved to iCloud. No warnings are > given and there are no terms and conditions stated or referred to. > > If I untick the iCloud box a dialogue box appears "If you turn off iCloud > Drive, all documents stored in iCloud will be deleted from this Mac." > > That statement is in bold. > > In a substantially smaller font and in a light shade of grey there is the > further statement "Your documents will still be available on other devices > using iCloud." > > Now, I don't know who owns those "other devices", but assuming I do and > no-one else does, what happens if I untick the iCloud box in preferences in > those other devices? > > Nothing is said about that in the dialogue box. Instead there's a blue > question mark, a button marked "Cancel" and another button "Delete from Mac". > > Now let's assume I bought my computer with Sierra installed and transferred > to it the content that I and I alone had created on my current computer. > Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Apple give equal prominence any where in > its blurb promoting the use of iCloud to the fact that doing so could result > in Apple taking control of my documents and preventing me from accessing them > unless I agree to recommencing the use of iCloud? > > That sort of information should not be buried away in small font wordy terms > and conditions. Not every one has the good fortune to have their computer set > up by someone who brings to their attention Apple's attempt to tie people to > Apple's hardware. I'd say that that conduct is unconscionable. It's too late > to bring it to the buyer's attention after they'd been induced to buy Apple > hardware because of iCloud and after they've transferred their data to the > computer. > > Regards, > > Michael > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 2 Jan 2017, at 2:50 pm, Daniel Kerr <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I wasn’t going to reply to this, but there is incorrect information Michael. >> That’s actually not correct. >> If you’re using iCloud Drive and your Desktop and Documents are in the >> cloud, when you turn it off, they come back. >> I know this,…as I’ve changed it around for clients. >> >> When it’s set up, it CLEARLY says “do you want your Documents and Desktop in >> the Cloud”. It gives the option to move them there, it doesn’t do it >> straight away. Again, I know this as I’ve done a lot of macOS Sierra set >> ups,…….and that option is there, and I’ve seen the question come up multiple >> times. I stop at that point and ask the client what they want to do and >> explain it. Not one set up I have done, have they automatically gone to the >> cloud. And the same for every iCloud set up, I’ve done. There is the option. >> >> So I’m not sure what “ransom” you are referring to……. >> I’m not sure what "bee in your bonnet" you have with Apple and iCloud, but >> they are pretty upfront with the information. They explain in lots of >> details what iCloud is, what is does, how it can be used and gives people >> the option to use it or not…….. >> (sure it might not be there directly onscreen, but it’s in the “read more” >> info and links that they provide when setting up iCloud. And they explain it >> all on the webpages as well. >> >> I’ve never seen anyone’s data ever just get “lost” and not able to be bought >> back on any machine I’ve ever worked on. (e.g. sorry, all your info is in >> the cloud, you can’t have it on your computer),….and I’ve done a lot of >> computers in my time,……… >> >> It’s something that’s there. People don’t have to use it if they don’t want >> to. If it helps or serves well, then that’s great. But no one is being >> forced into using it. You don’t want to use the features,…don’t. Just turn >> it off. If you find some of them useful,…turn it on. Easy! >> >> But saying it’s being held ransom is a bit untrue I feel. >> >> I’m sure in your field, people can’t use the excuse, “well, I didn’t read >> all the Terms and Conditions” or “I didn’t read the legal jargon”, so I’m >> sure I should be allowed to be let off. >> (OK, so I simplified it a little there,…but just using it as a rough >> example,…). >> >> Just my 2cents worth. Now back to my holiday break :) >> >> Happy New Year to all. >> >> Kind regards >> Daniel >> >> Sent from my iPhone 7 >> >> --- >> Daniel Kerr >> MacWizardry >> >> Phone: 0414 795 960 >> Email: <daniel AT macwizardry.com.au> >> Web: <http://www.macwizardry.com.au> >> >> >> **For everything Apple** >> >> NOTE: Any information provided in this email may be my personal opinion and >> as such should be taken accordingly, and may not be the views of >> MacWizardry. Any information provided does not offer or warrant any form of >> warranty or accept liability. It would be appreciated that if any >> information in this email is to be disseminated, distributed or copied, that >> permission by the author be requested. >> >>> On 2 Jan 2017, at 2:35 pm, Michael Hawkins >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> And if you tick the "off" box a warning appears on the screen to the effect >>> that if iCloud is turned off, all data will be removed from the computer. >>> >>> If that's not being held to ransom, I don't what is >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 2 Jan 2017, at 2:23 pm, Michael Hawkins >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> All I know is that If you don't want anything to go to iCloud Drive, you >>>> have to make sure that the "On" box is not ticked. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On 2 Jan 2017, at 2:06 pm, Tim Law <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> I don't agree that iCloud is only useful for finding a lost phone. >>>>> >>>>> I didn't seek advise on iCloud security nor what my personal choices of >>>>> how the technology suits my lifestyle should be. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose for my initial request for guidance and support on a >>>>> technical matter has been resolved. >>>>> >>>>> Tim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Tim's Retina iPad 2 >>>>> >>>>>> On 2 Jan 2017, at 1:43 pm, Bill Parker <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Time, >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t think its necessary to be forced by Apple to do anything. I use >>>>>> Bing to search and unless I clear all sites after doing so I notice ads >>>>>> popping up for service I was previously searching for. Kill off Cookies! >>>>>> iCloud? Extremely useful for finding a lost phone, but not much else. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>>>>> On 2 Jan 2017, at 12:05, Tim Law <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael my recollection from the last month, was that prior to me >>>>>>> making a decision to use iCloud to sync my Photos, that I used iTunes, >>>>>>> which I understand is the default, or at least was the only option for >>>>>>> many years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This worked fine, but for the reasons I have already stated, I chose to >>>>>>> use iCloud for Photos, and in fact, for the full suite of its capacity >>>>>>> - Keychain, Find my iPhone, Contacts, Calendar etc. Now the ‘stuck’ >>>>>>> issue has been resolved, it works fine for me, and as I said, my >>>>>>> recollection is that using anything to sync is optional - iTunes still >>>>>>> works across the home network and for years did this without fuss and >>>>>>> no use of external data. Yes, I do live and function within constant >>>>>>> access to 4G coverage and cable broadband. I also travel remotely and >>>>>>> prepare myself for the inevitable loss of connectivity by ensuring I >>>>>>> have local copies of data I may need. I understand not everyone is as >>>>>>> privileged as I am. Sadly, I cannot resolve this, but I do believe >>>>>>> Apple accommodates by giving syncing options that are quite reasonable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’m not sure Apple is forcing anyone to do anything - choosing iTunes, >>>>>>> or iCloud, or nothing to sync photos or other choices is the user >>>>>>> choice. If you have found iCloud syncing is turned on by default, I >>>>>>> would be surprised as I found I needed to sign into iCloud for all this >>>>>>> to work, and during that sign in process, there are options I had to >>>>>>> tick, or untick to select my options. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’ve never found anything I have loaded to my Apple servers being used >>>>>>> for commercial gain “that I know about”. I find it amusing that many >>>>>>> people, not saying you’re in this group Michael, use a free platform >>>>>>> such as Facebook for an enormous amount of personal data. It’s all >>>>>>> free, zilch, no cost, same as Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat etc etc and >>>>>>> then there is an outcry when these companies need to make money to >>>>>>> continue to provide this free platform. They get money from advertising >>>>>>> that tracks our usage and viewing habits and targets advertising to >>>>>>> ’suit’ us. I’m sure Google Maps, or TomTom sell data to transport >>>>>>> planners that they collect as we use route directions on connected GPS >>>>>>> devices. Is this not the same thing as using our information for >>>>>>> commercial gain? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My recollection of the Census fiasco was that no data was lost nor >>>>>>> corrupted. There were connection issues that we all experienced, but >>>>>>> there was no data loss nor hacking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am sorry you are frustrated Michael, but this is drifting well away >>>>>>> from my original query about the technical aspects of me using iCloud. >>>>>>> As I see it, you DO have choices and iCloud is not set by default. >>>>>>> There are many things to get frustrated about in the world, there >>>>>>> appears to be no reason to make this one more of them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best wishes for the New Year. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 1 Jan 2017, at 10:40 AM, Michael Hawkins >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Tim. What underpinned my email was my frustration with what I >>>>>>>> see as Apple's less than open tactic of making uploading to iCloud >>>>>>>> the default setting when iOS updates are released. I don't know what >>>>>>>> the privacy laws are in whichever Country the server is housed, and >>>>>>>> the debacle with the Australian census last year illustrates that no >>>>>>>> system is safe from database corruption. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If someone has more than one Apple device and wants to share content >>>>>>>> between the devices or make it possible for one device to access >>>>>>>> another, it should be that person's decision to set the system up so >>>>>>>> that that can be done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We don't all live in a location with ready Internet access, or quick >>>>>>>> upload and download speeds. Nor do we all live in a place where access >>>>>>>> to the Internet is cheap. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In other words the decision to transmit data over the internet should >>>>>>>> be a conscious deliberate decision made by the person who owns the >>>>>>>> data, and causing the data to be uploaded by default for commercial >>>>>>>> gain is reprehensible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 1 Jan 2017, at 10:14 am, Tim Law <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Fair question Michael, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The advantage of iCloud syncing as I see it, is that you can have one >>>>>>>>> ‘master’ computer where you download and store the originals photos, >>>>>>>>> AS WELL AS storing the full sized versions on the cloud. This enables >>>>>>>>> Time Machine and Super Duper to back up the photos if iCloud flies >>>>>>>>> away into dark matter. I’ve lost many photos before due to hard disk >>>>>>>>> failure and don’t want to go through that again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The other advantage is that it only downloads smaller images to all >>>>>>>>> the other devices, sized to suit that device. The entire photo >>>>>>>>> library is on each of these devices, all 15000, not like using Photo >>>>>>>>> Stream which only put 1000 photos on the mobile devices. I am not >>>>>>>>> likely to NEED to view all those on the other devices, but inevitably >>>>>>>>> when I wanted to show someone a photo from a year before for example, >>>>>>>>> when using Photo Stream, and iTunes sync, it was not in either >>>>>>>>> folder. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I did try to do what you suggest, but the MacBook Pro did not have >>>>>>>>> enough storage capacity for the full Photos Library, and there was >>>>>>>>> really no need to have more than one computer with full sized images. >>>>>>>>> If you need to edit or print the full sized images, they are >>>>>>>>> downloaded from iCloud as needed to the specific device. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I trust this explains my logic. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have stopped taking photos in RAW which complicates matters >>>>>>>>> somewhat when sharing via iCloud. What I have found is that a photo >>>>>>>>> that has both JPEG and RAW version is impossible to select between in >>>>>>>>> iOS devices. So if I want to attach a photo to an email, it must be >>>>>>>>> in JPEG not RAW, and several times I have done it, only the RAW >>>>>>>>> version - at some 20mb - is able to be attached. I’m now taking full >>>>>>>>> sized JPEG instead and these run to around 8mb per image, and the >>>>>>>>> size is managed by Mail when sending. I am not sure if there is a way >>>>>>>>> around the way iCloud manages RAW image syncing to iOS devices - >>>>>>>>> happy to hear suggestions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 31 Dec 2016, at 8:45 PM, Michael Hawkins >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pardon me for asking this, but wouldn't have been faster and simpler >>>>>>>>>> to physically connect one computer to the other? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 31 Dec 2016, at 1:07 pm, Tim Law <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Update. For the benefit of anyone else having similar problems >>>>>>>>>>> with iCloud syncing ‘stuck’. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I now have a reasonable degree of confidence that Photos has been >>>>>>>>>>> sorted and will now correctly sync with iCloud over four devices. >>>>>>>>>>> This has not been the easy process I had expected. I discovered >>>>>>>>>>> that creating a new library I could keep the original library and >>>>>>>>>>> not risk losing data. Only one library can be the ‘system library’ >>>>>>>>>>> and sync with iCloud. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have one computer that is ticked to download originals and that >>>>>>>>>>> computer is now showing ‘all up to date’ in Photos. Yay. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My mobile devices have always synced well with iCloud and update >>>>>>>>>>> any changes immediately. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My laptop had been refusing to sync correctly with iCloud and was >>>>>>>>>>> stuck for a week. After signing out of iCloud, restarting the >>>>>>>>>>> computer in Safe Mode, then restarting again in normal mode, >>>>>>>>>>> rebuilding the Photo Library with no change, I ended up creating a >>>>>>>>>>> new Library, then turned iCloud syncing back on and it is currently >>>>>>>>>>> downloading the contents of my iCloud photo gallery, some 50Gb, so >>>>>>>>>>> will take a while. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I lost track of how many times I found Photos trying to upload the >>>>>>>>>>> entire 15000 photos to iCloud, at least five, and am grateful to >>>>>>>>>>> have a 1000Gb plan with Bigpond on cable so had the capacity for >>>>>>>>>>> such nonsense. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I expect my problems are now on the way to being resolved. Looking >>>>>>>>>>> forward to happy Photos syncing in the New Year. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Dec 2016, at 7:28 PM, Tim Law <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> EEEk,,, :-( >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Restarted Mac Mini. >>>>>>>>>>>> This got the upload moving again - yay. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "uploading 100 to go" >>>>>>>>>>>> "50 to go" looking good. >>>>>>>>>>>> "uploading 1 item" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Success I’m thinking. >>>>>>>>>>>> Suddenly it is uploading 15,827 items - AGAIN! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sigh ….. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I’ve quit Photos and will see what mood it is in tomorrow. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Dec 2016, at 6:35 PM, Tim Law <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good evening, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am hoping to find out how to reset the sync data to force one >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer to reset the sync data for loading Photos to iCloud >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Two weeks, or more, ago, I turned on iCloud storage for Photos on >>>>>>>>>>>>> four devices. >>>>>>>>>>>>> All are logged into the same iCloud account, although some are >>>>>>>>>>>>> @me.com and some are @mac.com email address names. I understand >>>>>>>>>>>>> this is insignificant. I have checked at >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://appleid.apple.com/ and found all four devices are logged >>>>>>>>>>>>> into the same Apple ID >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac Mini - 10.11.6 Cannot be upgraded to Sierra >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac Book Pro macOS 10.12.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone 6S iOS 10.1.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> iPad Air 2 iOS 10.1.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to keep a current back-up, I have turned on ‘Download >>>>>>>>>>>>> originals to this Mac’ on the Mac Mini which is my ‘main’ >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer. Data is backed up using Time Machine and Super Duper. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All the mobile devices have the same number of photos and videos >>>>>>>>>>>>> as each other and as is https://www.icloud.com/#photos2 which is >>>>>>>>>>>>> 15,003 >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Mac Mini registers it should have 14752. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Mac Mini is Stuck at uploading an extra 1878 photos and has >>>>>>>>>>>>> been for over 24 hours. This is the second time this has happened >>>>>>>>>>>>> and it has taken a week to upload the 55Gb of data a second time. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo’s triggered itself into a reload of all photos after I >>>>>>>>>>>>> turned off iCloud Photo Library in an effort to get the devices >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly syncing. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> When I delete, or add, a photo to any of the mobile devices, it >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shared to the other mobile devices quickly. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Photos on the Mac Mini has kept several photos that have been >>>>>>>>>>>>> deleted for days on the other devices. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> During the week I can see the CPU working hard on iCloud or >>>>>>>>>>>>> Photos, then I see the upload loading to iCloud. It varies >>>>>>>>>>>>> between activity on both, but once ‘stuck’ on 1878 to go, there >>>>>>>>>>>>> is no activity showing. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have tried the Pause for One Day button in Photos but nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>> forces the reset and correction as I thought it would. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I need to find a file that contains the sync data and >>>>>>>>>>>>> remove it as I suspect it has got corrupted somehow. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there such a file and are my ideas sensible or is there >>>>>>>>>>>>> another option. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I’ve been patient for two or more weeks with Photos and iCloud - >>>>>>>>>>>>> like the forums suggest - now is the time for a hammer!! kidding >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ideas welcome. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about turning off iCloud Photo Library, deleting all the >>>>>>>>>>>>> photos in the Mac Mini library….. eeeek….. and then turning it >>>>>>>>>>>>> back on again so all the 55Gb will download. That sounds scary. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Guidelines - >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>>>>>>>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>>>>>>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>>>>>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>>>>>>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>>>>>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>>>>>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>>>>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>>>>>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>>>>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>>>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>>>>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>>>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>>>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>>>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>>>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Parker >>>>>> 0403 583 676 >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <BFS logo.jpg> >>>>>> Darling Range BFB >>>>>> >>>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >> >> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >> Settings & Unsubscribe - >> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> > -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- > Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> > Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> > Settings & Unsubscribe - > <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> Settings & Unsubscribe - <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug>
