On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:50:00 -0500 Christian Ohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>Things about the code that need changing imo:
>- The graphics engine, including the GUI

Integrating a new gfx engine and GUI will not be a simple task at 
It is not just rewriting the code, it is the way WZ handles all the 
data, and thus what WZ wants.  Take a look at the GUI for example, 
and try adding something.
It is a big pain.  Reading the old logs, I think it was suggested a 
long time ago to replace the GUI, and that task was left to 
Devurandom.  Then that was dropped do to the complexity of handling 
all the support code from what I read.

This very problem was talked about and it was said that might as 
well start from scratch, since that is what you would be doing.

>A new graphics engine needs the models in a compatible format 
>which is
>dependent on the engine used, of course. 

Converting all pies + textures to something those can handle is 
another big project.  
If you look at most engines now, most all textures are in .dds 
format, which seems to be the best choice for doing more advanced 

>- The network code
>I have seen the discussion on the forum about this, I just want to
>address two points: 1. There are libraries that do the stuff you 
>talked about, so there's no need to rewrite that (but has all
>disadvantages as listed with the graphics engines). One of those 
>RakNet. Unfortunately the author has changed the license from GPL 
>to a
>CC license, which might or might not be compatible to the GPL 
>(hard to
>say, since the CC licenses were written for artwork, not code;
>additionally, there are references to both the GPL and CC in some 
>files). But there are older GPL versions available (if you search 
>them). At least in Debian there seem to be no usable networking 
>libs, so
>we'd need to do something about that (like including the RakNet 

I was looking at this:
 The Torque Network Library is a robust, secure, easy to use, cross-
platform C++ networking API designed for high performance 
simulations and games. The network architecture in TNL has powered 
some of the best internet multiplayer action games to date. Whether 
you're writing a multiplayer game, developing a complex simulation, 
or just need a solid foundation for network apps, TNL will meet 
your needs.

TNL is available under the GNU General Public License (GPL), an 
indie license, and a commercial license.

It is C++ though.  Can all compilers handle mixed code OK?  I know 
MSVC can, I think gcc can (or is it gpp? g++?) dunno about mac?

There is also hawkNL:

>And 2. The float issue. This doesn't only apply to networking, but 
>be very important there. As floats are not accurate and can lead 
>different numbers on different machines, _no_ part of the game 
>should use floats (else the game state drifts apart between the 
>and the game desyncs - perhaps that's the problem right now, I 
>know the network code). Well, that the ideal case if you want to 
>deterministic, I don't know if that's easily doable with any 

What is the float issue?  I must have missed this? All compilers 
follow the IEEE standard.  

>- All game data should be externalized so it can be changed easier

You can edit all the game data now, most are just text files, and 
that is pretty easy to change.  Changing isn't the hardest part, it 
is adding stuff.  Look what has to be done to add menu options and 
things.  Ick.

>All the magic numbers that are scattered throughout the code 
>should be
>migrated into data files and loaded on startup. If the scripting 
>is fast enough, even vehicle behaviour could be scripted, so the 
>just loads the data and executes it, and adding new units etc. 
>needs new data files without any code changes. (So we have an 
>with a Warzone mod, and the possibility for completely new mods 
>feel completely different - not just the same with different 

I don't follow what magic numbers are?

>- General structure
>The general structure of the code leaves a lot to be desired... I 
>wondering if it's easier to start a new engine from scratch with a 
>design, and make a Warzone mod for that than to change the 

That is the conclusion that Rodzilla/Grim/Coma/Qanly/Per(?) came to 
also.  It would be easier to just start a new game.  From the last 
logs I read, Rodzilla & Grim, Coma,maybe Qanly also, started a new 
project using the torque engine.  Those logs on wztoys haven't been 
updated since july.  I don't know what is going on with that. :(  
They might have a pretty decent game going on now.  Anybody know 
anything about it?

That is the last update talking about things.

>Anyway, that's the development part. The other part is the 
>community -
>people that want to play and mod the game. How is it possible to 
>them interested while doing all those changes? Right now a lot of
>questions are answered "this will change", so people will wait for 
>changes to happen, and if they don't happen soon enough, they'll 

I guess that depends on the person, and if they like SP, or like to 
do MP.
We can't match what Company of Heroes does in terms of 
The biggest issue is the network code, or maybe it was the network 
logic from the start that is causing all the issues?  I think I 
read on some forums about the original code wasn't all that great 
to begin with, and they also had pretty much the same issues.  Can 
anyone test the original game out via lan or whatever to see 
exactly what the issues were before?  Does the original game even 
run on XP? 
If the networking stuff can make the game at least playable, then 
more people would play it.  The rest would be a nice bonus. :)

>Well, that's it for now. It's just talking again, and I have 
>no idea how much time I'll be able to spend actually doing 
>but I hope at least for a constructive discussion.

Lots & lots of time.  Would it be worth it?  I guess that is up to 
the people doing the actual work, and if they find it fun or not.

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