I think that is a poor way of looking at it. Pascal has put his heart and soul and an amazing amount of effort and determination in the community for many years. It would not exist were it not for Pascal. What we are primarily discussing is not how to keep the WO Association going as it is, but how to prevent our friend from being financially harmed by the end of the status quo. That is my first and foremost consideration. Friends don’t leave friends hanging. Period.
Once that is taken care of, we can consider what is actually needed now and how to best accomplish that. Chuck From: <webobjects-dev-bounces+chill=gevityinc....@lists.apple.com> on behalf of jazz salsa <jazzsa...@me.com> Date: Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 8:40 AM To: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com" <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Follow up on closure This way of working is weird to me. I make a proposal to form a new community together and get zero response. Why would i spend 50$ to a "community" that is only about one person doing all the work? And it is not clear if we get access to the wowodc 2016 stuff. It is time for change. Who wants this also? Let's start the migration after wowodc anyway. Two people offered hosting at their companies. Regards Bart P.D. I will fix the spreadsheet ________________________________ From: webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com<mailto:webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com> Sent: 12/05/2016 16:52 To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com<mailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> Subject: Webobjects-dev Digest, Vol 13, Issue 183 Send Webobjects-dev mailing list submissions to webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/webobjects-dev or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com You can reach the person managing the list at webobjects-dev-ow...@lists.apple.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Webobjects-dev digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Follow up on closure (Pascal Robert) 2. Re: Follow up on closure (Michael Kondratov) 3. Re: Follow up on closure (Hugi Thordarson) 4. Re: Closure of WOCommunity Association (Jérémy DE ROYER) 5. Re: Follow up on closure (Jérémy DE ROYER) 6. Re: Follow up on closure (Ken Anderson) 7. Re: Follow up on closure (Klaus Berkling) 8. Re: Follow up on closure (Paul Yu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 11:31:40 +0000 From: Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> To: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com" <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> Subject: Follow up on closure Message-ID: <8402cb81-4188-4465-9e05-05caff598...@macti.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until WOWODC, so let's do that. Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is moving away or already done so. - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated that we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. Sadly, we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get 4-5 registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would be a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks like I was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 09:14:26 -0500 From: Michael Kondratov <mich...@aspireauctions.com> To: Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca>, webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Follow up on closure Message-ID: <394865ca-a5fc-4d3e-b4cb-6492d8456...@aspireauctions.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Pascal, There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I have not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It was pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use inferior tools?) Michael Sent from my iPhone > On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> wrote: > > It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until > WOWODC, so let's do that. > > Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: > > - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use WO > for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is moving > away or already done so. > > - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated that > we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. Sadly, we > are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get 4-5 > registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). > > - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. > > - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would be a > great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks like I was > wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. > > - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of Wonder, > and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why should we > keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com > > This email sent to mich...@aspireauctions.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 14:38:36 +0000 From: Hugi Thordarson <h...@karlmenn.is> To: Michael Kondratov <mich...@aspireauctions.com> Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Follow up on closure Message-ID: <8f71e079-52ff-43c5-8442-afc66cd67...@karlmenn.is> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I feel rather bad and somewhat responsible for everything that’s going on these days. I had no idea that a phonecall from Apple would result in this. I'm still using WO actively in numerous old and new projects, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Being an opensource nut I’ve made numerous attempts at “escaping” WO, but that sweet, sweet statefulness, lovely API, KVC and WOLips just keeps dragging me back in. We need to find a way forward. - hugi > On 12. maí 2016, at 14:14, Michael Kondratov <mich...@aspireauctions.com> > wrote: > > Pascal, > There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I have > not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It was > pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it really > possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use WebObjects? Is > there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use inferior tools?) > > Michael > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> wrote: >> >> It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until >> WOWODC, so let's do that. >> >> Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: >> >> - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use >> WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is >> moving away or already done so. >> >> - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated that >> we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. Sadly, >> we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get 4-5 >> registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). >> >> - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. >> >> - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would be >> a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks like I >> was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. >> >> - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of Wonder, >> and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why should we >> keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com >> >> This email sent to mich...@aspireauctions.com > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is > > This email sent to h...@karlmenn.is ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 14:42:10 +0000 From: Jérémy DE ROYER <jeremy.dero...@ingencys.net> To: WebObjects-Dev <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Closure of WOCommunity Association Message-ID: <8bb5dca1-f332-44dd-9b1b-d469bfcbf...@ingencys.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I sign for a bronze membership to support the wocommunity that help us everyday working with WebObjects and Wonder. Since 10 years, I don’t have the time and the money to fly to Montreal for the wowodc. But, in the time of e-learning, online conference and social network, I’m still surprising that it’s still not possible to assit to a e-wowodc, may be with national theaters (Paris, London, Bruxels is not far away, Roma and Berlin still a bit far). It could help us and the wo community to remain united and active… and to pay each year the membership, if http://store.wocommunity.org/ stay alive (;-) Thank’s to take time reading me, Jérémy > Le 12 mai 2016 à 11:51, Theodore Petrosky <tedp...@yahoo.com> a écrit : > > I also added the bronze sponsorship! > > wish I could do more! > > >> On May 12, 2016, at 5:13 AM, Markus Ruggiero <mailingli...@kataputt.com> >> wrote: >> >> Bronce sponsor since 10 mins ago >> >> ---markus--- >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/tedpet5%40yahoo.com >> >> This email sent to tedp...@yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jeremy.deroyer%40ingencys.net > > This email sent to jeremy.dero...@ingencys.net ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 14:42:55 +0000 From: Jérémy DE ROYER <jeremy.dero...@ingencys.net> To: Hugi Thordarson <h...@karlmenn.is> Cc: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com" <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Follow up on closure Message-ID: <f7061d7c-a361-4f5a-8b42-c961c33e7...@ingencys.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 +1 Jérémy > Le 12 mai 2016 à 16:38, Hugi Thordarson <h...@karlmenn.is> a écrit : > > I feel rather bad and somewhat responsible for everything that’s going on > these days. I had no idea that a phonecall from Apple would result in this. > > I'm still using WO actively in numerous old and new projects, and I don’t see > that changing anytime soon. Being an opensource nut I’ve made numerous > attempts at “escaping” WO, but that sweet, sweet statefulness, lovely API, > KVC and WOLips just keeps dragging me back in. > > We need to find a way forward. > > - hugi > > > >> On 12. maí 2016, at 14:14, Michael Kondratov <mich...@aspireauctions.com> >> wrote: >> >> Pascal, >> There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I have >> not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It was >> pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it >> really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use >> WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use inferior >> tools?) >> >> Michael >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> wrote: >>> >>> It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until >>> WOWODC, so let's do that. >>> >>> Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: >>> >>> - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use >>> WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is >>> moving away or already done so. >>> >>> - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated that >>> we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. Sadly, >>> we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get 4-5 >>> registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). >>> >>> - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. >>> >>> - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would be >>> a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks like I >>> was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. >>> >>> - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of >>> Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why >>> should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com >>> >>> This email sent to mich...@aspireauctions.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is >> >> This email sent to h...@karlmenn.is > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jeremy.deroyer%40ingencys.net > > This email sent to jeremy.dero...@ingencys.net ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 10:44:57 -0400 From: Ken Anderson <kenli...@anderhome.com> To: Hugi Thordarson <h...@karlmenn.is> Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Follow up on closure Message-ID: <adbb25de-889f-4a92-a846-af5573014...@anderhome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hugi, I don’t think this had anything to do with you. I would not have pushed the buttons you pushed - but so be it. Me, I prefer to let sleeping dragons… sleep :) Pascal laid out the issues that brought him to his conclusion: - Less participation in WOnder - Less attendance at WOWODC - The math of 57% for new, and 32% for maintenance, but to me, that means 89% are still active! I call this good! Personally, I don’t think these changes warrant shutting things down - but clearly Pascal has had enough, and we all need to pick up the flag he has carried for so long and so well. As Pascal has said the last time we were going to shut down, I’m guessing it would be easier for someone in Canada to take over the association, but if there’s no takers, I’m happy to help coordinate the migration to a US based entity. Ken > On May 12, 2016, at 10:38 AM, Hugi Thordarson <h...@karlmenn.is> wrote: > > I feel rather bad and somewhat responsible for everything that’s going on > these days. I had no idea that a phonecall from Apple would result in this. > > I'm still using WO actively in numerous old and new projects, and I don’t see > that changing anytime soon. Being an opensource nut I’ve made numerous > attempts at “escaping” WO, but that sweet, sweet statefulness, lovely API, > KVC and WOLips just keeps dragging me back in. > > We need to find a way forward. > > - hugi > > > >> On 12. maí 2016, at 14:14, Michael Kondratov <mich...@aspireauctions.com> >> wrote: >> >> Pascal, >> There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I have >> not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It was >> pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it >> really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use >> WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use inferior >> tools?) >> >> Michael >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> wrote: >>> >>> It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until >>> WOWODC, so let's do that. >>> >>> Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: >>> >>> - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use >>> WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is >>> moving away or already done so. >>> >>> - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated that >>> we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. Sadly, >>> we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get 4-5 >>> registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). >>> >>> - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. >>> >>> - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would be >>> a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks like I >>> was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. >>> >>> - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of >>> Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why >>> should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com >>> >>> This email sent to mich...@aspireauctions.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is >> >> This email sent to h...@karlmenn.is > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists%40anderhome.com > > This email sent to kenli...@anderhome.com ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 07:48:01 -0700 From: Klaus Berkling <webobje...@berkling.us> To: WebObjects Development <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Follow up on closure Message-ID: <e34fe726-9954-4ce0-b1a2-8129c11da...@berkling.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > On May 12, 2016, at 7:14 AM, Michael Kondratov <mich...@aspireauctions.com> > wrote: > > Pascal, > There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I have > not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It was > pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it really > possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use WebObjects? Is > there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use inferior tools?) > commerzbank.de <http://commerzbank.de/> still uses WebObjects: https://www.commerzbank.de/formulare/WebObjects/FormCenter.woa/wa/default?path=/pk/de/Service/SP23_Anmeldung_OnlineBanking_Privat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.apple.com/archives/webobjects-dev/attachments/20160512/fa4e70c7/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 10:51:13 -0400 From: Paul Yu <p...@mac.com> To: Hugi Þórðarson <h...@karlmenn.is> Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Follow up on closure Message-ID: <c5517358-4505-482f-9400-b7f978c9d...@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hugi The state of WO and the WO community is not because of your persistence to get a definitive statement from Apple. It is because there are no BIG organizations that support this community. This community is stuck in purgatory. We can’t move forward because we may infringe on Apple’s copyrights. We can’t move forward because there are people here using old versions of the system and don’t want to move forward. We can’t move forward because we can’t dedicate enough time to working on the lower levels. We have too many people here that just want to say no. No BIG organization want to use this stuff because it is NOT OPEN SOURCE, it is NOT COOl, it is NOT an active product, it does NOT have an active DEV community, but it is a legal LIABILITY. Without a BIG organization supporting it, there is no money. No startup unicorn will use the framework, because no VC would support it. My $0.02 Paul > On May 12, 2016, at 10:38 AM, Hugi Thordarson <h...@karlmenn.is> wrote: > > I feel rather bad and somewhat responsible for everything that’s going on > these days. I had no idea that a phonecall from Apple would result in this. > > I'm still using WO actively in numerous old and new projects, and I don’t see > that changing anytime soon. Being an opensource nut I’ve made numerous > attempts at “escaping” WO, but that sweet, sweet statefulness, lovely API, > KVC and WOLips just keeps dragging me back in. > > We need to find a way forward. > > - hugi > > > >> On 12. maí 2016, at 14:14, Michael Kondratov <mich...@aspireauctions.com> >> wrote: >> >> Pascal, >> There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I have >> not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It was >> pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it >> really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use >> WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use inferior >> tools?) >> >> Michael >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> wrote: >>> >>> It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until >>> WOWODC, so let's do that. >>> >>> Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: >>> >>> - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use >>> WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is >>> moving away or already done so. >>> >>> - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated that >>> we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. Sadly, >>> we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get 4-5 >>> registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). >>> >>> - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. >>> >>> - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would be >>> a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks like I >>> was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. >>> >>> - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of >>> Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why >>> should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com >>> >>> This email sent to mich...@aspireauctions.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is >> >> This email sent to h...@karlmenn.is > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/pyu%40mac.com > > This email sent to p...@mac.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Webobjects-dev mailing list Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/webobjects-dev End of Webobjects-dev Digest, Vol 13, Issue 183 ***********************************************
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