I said, " I'm getting the impression that they have good reason to believe the majority of them are guilty. Sorry, I'm convinced. You don't need a trial to prove someone is guilty." You said you are using guilt and evidence interchangeably. So guilt can be determined prior to the trial? I agree a trial is needed to determine punishment, but sometimes it isn't needed to determine guilt. How can there be instances of overwhelming guilt without a trial? I still think people can be determined to be guilty without a trial. Determining punishment maybe not, but determining guilt yes. Hmm, I wonder if OJ would have had a trial to determine guilt if he had said yes I killed my ex-wife and Ron Goldman that night.
--- In [email protected], "Hannah Robinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I meant guilt and evidence interchangably. You still have to have a trial. > As for the terrorists rotting in hell? I'll take rotting in a maximum > security prison for the rest of their natural lives - provided they are > convicted in as fair a trial as is possible under the circumstances. > > Also, I started writing this before, but I couldn't quite say it the way I > wanted. I am not angry that a plot was thwarted. I am incredibly happy > that a plot was thwarted, particularly as it was due primarily to legal > surveillance and communication across several countries. Good solid police > work and international cooperation meant that hundreds of people kept their > lives. So nobody died, and it turns out we now have proof that we don't > need to sacrifice personal liberty and the rule of law to be safe. These > are things to celebrate. > > So I went and saw "Little Miss Sunshine." Effing hilarious. > > On 8/12/06, Ellen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > did you mean overwhelming guilt, or overwhelming evidence? I think I > > may have worded my original statement incorrectly. Not "those people > > they arrested" but "the people who did it." It's possible they > > arrested innocent people, and even more likely that not everyone > > involved was arrested, but I have no doubt there was a plot, and the > > people who were planning it should rot in hell, whether they are > > convicted or not. Is that better? > > > > > > --- In [email protected]<weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com>, > > "Hannah Robinson" > > <hjrobinson@> wrote: > > > > > > Sigh. I'm going to bullet-point this one: > > > > > > 1) No one's arguing that these people were arrested without cause. > > We're > > > taking exception with your implied belief that a trial is unnecessary in > > > instances of overwhelming guilt. The rule of law dictates that a person > > > suspected of a crime be charged under the stated laws of the land > > and that > > > the state must marshall evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt > > that the > > > person under trial has in fact committed those crimes and should be > > punished > > > for them. The burden of proof is on the state, not on the > > defendant. And > > > it's certainly not in the court of public opinion. > > > > > > 2) Claiming responsibility (i.e confessing) is not proof in and of > > itself > > > that the group was behind it. There are many reasons why an > > organization > > > might claim false credit. > > > > > > 3) A criminal trial should follow the dictates I set out earlier. > > The farce > > > that is Saddam's trial should not be held up as an example of a working > > > system of justice. > > > > > > 4) In the article cited, the writer does not use the word 'allegedly' > > > because the word 'suspect' is used appropriately to describe the > > individuals > > > arrested and accused of the crime. > > > > > > I understand that you're upset, but you're also wrong. > > > > > > On 8/12/06, Ellen <ellengoodman6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > OK, am I the only one who is pretty sure that at least some of these > > > > people did something wrong? This is pretty extreme action if they > > > > didn't. Tough call, I know, but if they had blown themselves up they > > > > would have been pretty guilty and there still wouldn't have been a > > > > trial. I read some group claimed responsibility. If a group takes > > > > responsibility for something, they are pretty much admitting they did > > > > it without a trial. Sometimes a trial is just to determine > > > > punishment, not prove guilt. Did Saddam Hussein go to trial to > > > > determine if he was guilty or not? > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/11/AR2006081102053_pf.html > > > > > > > > I noticed an unusual absence of the word "allegedly" in this article, > > > > usually used when reporters don't want to be accused of making false > > > > accusations. They seem pretty sure that these people were planning > > > > something big. If you really think I'm jumping to conclusions, I'm > > > > willing to entertain that possibility. > > > > > > > > --- In > > [email protected] <weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com> > > <weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > > > "Hannah Robinson" > > > > > > > > <hjrobinson@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > That's kind of the whole point of a trial, Ellen. > > > > > > > > > > On 8/11/06, Ellen <ellengoodman6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm getting the impression that they have good reason to > > believe the > > > > > > majority of them are guilty. Sorry, I'm convinced. You don't > > need a > > > > > > trial to prove someone is guilty. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > > > [email protected]<weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com> > > <weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > > > "denisesudell" > > > > > > > > > > > > <dsudell7781@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > > > [email protected]<weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com> > > <weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <weingartenchatters%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > > > > > > > "Ellen" <ellengoodman6@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Those people they arrested should rot in hell. . . . Yes it's > > > > > > > possible they arrested some people that were innocent, but I am > > > > > > > certain they aren't all innocent. . . . This is sick and these > > > > people > > > > > > > deserve whatever is coming to them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boy, if I ever get arrested and charged with a crime, I hope you > > > > don't > > > > > > > serve on the jury. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ever hear of "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weingartenchatters/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
