Hoi,
I think I requested P1472, I forgot all about it. It takes so long before
properties are created and I certainly forget about this one. Anyway,
thanks for adding that to the Wikidata item. I added Mr Havell with his Q
number to the Creatore template. I blogged about Mr Havell as well. [1]
Wikidata is intended to include only articles. Redirects are a fudge to
include references to parts of articles in Wikidata. That part is not
acceptable at all. It can be argued however and, you do, that redirects are
not references to parts of an article in Wikidata. Given that we have non
informative items for categories, lists and disambiguation pages you have a
point. The difference between them is that they are all marked for what
they are.. Not informative, hardly relevant and as such they can be
filtered out.
Given that we have badges, I could agree that we include redirects when
they are all marked for what they are.
Thanks,
GerardM
[1]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/10/bringing-wikidata-to-commons-one-step.html
On 18 October 2014 09:00, James Heald <[email protected]> wrote:
> On the other hand, Gerard, the full sum of knowledge about Daniel Havell
> has more dimensions that are presented by Reasonator only.
>
> That's why it's useful for the Creator template to be able to contain a
> link to a written-out biography, and for it to be able to continue to do so
> even once its fields are drawn from Wikidata.
>
> It's therefore not helpful for Wikidata to throw a pink error message and
> complain that "Havell family" already has an item, when somebody tries to
> link your new Q-number to the Daniel Havell redirect on :en:
>
> It is valuable to throw a warning, and confirm with the user that this is
> really what they want to do; but if it *is* what the user really wants to
> do, they should be able to over-ride that warning, and link to the redirect
> anyway, perhaps also requiring the user to add a field to describe the
> nature of the redirect.
>
> So I've added a sitelink to :en:, using the temporarily un-redirect trick,
> and also a P1472 to link back to the Commons creator template.
>
> But it should be easier to do this without having to do the temporary
> un-redirect; and it would be good to record that the :en: sitelink is
> pointing to a redirect, and which item the target of that redirect
> corresponds to.
>
> All best,
>
> James.
>
>
>
> On 18/10/2014 07:01, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> Just for arguments sake I have included the information about Mr Havell to
>> Wikidata. The result is certainly informative when seen from the
>> Reasonator. [1]
>>
>> Any and all people known in the "Creator" template on Commons can and
>> should have a Wikidata entry. When you are serious about the Havell
>> family,
>> you should make sure that all of them have full information in Wikidata as
>> well BEFORE you complain about redirects to the Haswell family.[2] from
>> English Wikipedia.
>>
>> As I said before, your point of view is English Wikipedia oriented and
>> this
>> is NOT English Wikipedia and it is NOT to promote the glory of English
>> Wikipedia. It is to share in the sum of all knowledge and THAT has more
>> dimensions than English only.
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>>
>> [1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=Q18325155&lang=en
>> [2] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?find=havell
>>
>> On 16 October 2014 09:34, James Heald <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I
>>> am
>>> saying.
>>>
>>> To be clearer:
>>>
>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
>>> not
>>> the item.
>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a
>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge.
>>>
>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not exist"
>>>
>>>
>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.
>>>
>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article on
>>> it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375
>>>
>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article
>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649
>>>
>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an
>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship.
>>>
>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to
>>> the
>>> "Hatmaker" item.
>>>
>>>
>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker".
>>>
>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no
>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.
>>>
>>>
>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
>>> "Hatmaking"
>>>
>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
>>> linking
>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the
>>> "Hatmaking"
>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To give another example:
>>>
>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
>>> (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
>>> tests)
>>>
>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead
>>> there
>>> is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&;
>>> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell
>>> family:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell
>>>
>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
>>> redirect.
>>>
>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.
>>>
>>>
>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.
>>>
>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.
>>>
>>>
>>> All best,
>>>
>>> James.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>
>>> Hoi,
>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
>>>> good
>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
>>>> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation
>>>> page..
>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects.
>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it
>>>> only
>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject
>>>>
>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> GerardM
>>>>
>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
>>>>> * go to client wiki,
>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
>>>>> * add a sitelink
>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical
>>>>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most
>>>>> recently at
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F
>>>>>
>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly
>>>>> roundabout process above).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for
>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are
>>>>> useful,
>>>>> and should be created.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm
>>>>> the
>>>>> practice:
>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the
>>>>> sitelink
>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article.
>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item as
>>>>> its
>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis en
>>>>> masse, and site-linking them.
>>>>>
>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where wiki
>>>>> A
>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all in
>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen
>>>>> different
>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the
>>>>> profession
>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking').
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping a
>>>>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to the
>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- James.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> nope
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola <[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell <[email protected]>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to
>>>>>>>> "Prunus"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>> are you not?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>
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