Hi, *Denny*, *Thad*:
A sketchy thought from sincerely yours Data Scientist, >> I think that it is entirely possible to layer a prototype semantics over Wikidata... is quite doable, given that - we first remove the "catalogues" from Wikidata, e.g. scholarly articles and astronomical objects, so to - enable for some decent level of semantic coherence to emerge there, and finally - introduce a property like "associated to" that has an semantic relatedness (i.e. associative strength) score as its value (nevermind the scale for now); - essentially, the Wikidata Concepts Monitor <https://wikidata-analytics.wmcloud.org/app/WikidataAnalytics> system computes such values across a selection of large Wikidata classes, relying on - the re-use data for Wikidata entities across all WMF projects that have a client-side Wikidata entity usage tracking enabled <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/Schema/wbc_entity_usage> (i.e. using Wikipedia and other projects as its referential worlds). In effect, we would end up having a Wikidata that provides a basis for both (A) a "good old symbolic AI" (properties, ontology) approach (what we have now), and (B) a basis for statistical learning based approaches (by providing entity associations) - a quite desirable outcome I'd say. Cheers, GSM Goran S. Milovanović, PhD Data Scientist, Software Department Wikimedia Deutschland ------------------------------------------------ "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------ On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 9:00 PM David McDonell <[email protected]> wrote: > Seconded!! > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:47 PM Samuel Klein <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Wow :) Thanks for that, Dan! >> >> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:43 AM Dan Brickley <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 11:58, Jan Dittrich <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I would be very interested in Wikidatas Relation to Cyc >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyc> on one hand and the semantic Web >>>> on the other. >>>> >>> >>> this isn’t written down in one place well, yet >>> >>> Here is one strand of history, emphasising from Cyc via Guha’s later >>> work on MCF. >>> >>> CycL inspired Apple MCF, which got XMLified by Tim Bray when Guha took >>> it Netscape. June ‘97 it was submitted to W3C by Netscape. It combined with >>> requirements from W3C content labeling work (PICS), where there was >>> interest in adding more decentralized expressivity (eg to support Dublin >>> Core and other schemas being combined in one “label”), complex structures >>> and datatyped property values, aka Signed PICS labels and PICS-NG. While >>> PICS and PICS-NG had an s-expression based syntax, RDF (like the 1997 >>> iteration of MCF) went with XML. At the time XML was being invented by >>> stripping SGML down into something that might suit the Web. Microsoft >>> submitted XML-Data to W3C mid 97 too (as well as later a revision, breaking >>> W3C etiquette). XML-Data shared some goals with RDF but not its graph data >>> model. RDF and other usecases led to XML Namespaces being an important >>> thing. As XML popularity grew, RDF was under pressure since it didn’t >>> engage much with the SGML heritage. The RDFS WG launched just after the RDF >>> Model + Syntax spec was announced at Dublin Core’s conference in Finland. >>> This being the “browser wars” era both RDF and RDFS were under huge >>> pressure to be completed quickly. RDFS included a small subset of the >>> schema-defining machinery from MCF. The RDF M+S WG produced an RDF >>> recommendation in Feb 1999 but RDFS was left in limbo, in part because the >>> XML community were wary of being forced to build XML Schema on top of it. >>> Meanwhile from 1998 a small but enthusiastic community started to build >>> around RDF - experimenting with query languages, databases, integration >>> with inference engines, APIs etc., alongside continued support from >>> Netscape who used the technology heavily for everything from RSS feeds, >>> sitemaps, “whats related” annotation services, open data (dmoz) dumps, to >>> their own browser’s internal data source APIs (xul templates, bookmarks, >>> mail, ..). On the standards track, W3C management backed off from RDF work >>> to reflect the concerns of its membership, who tended to much prefer XML. >>> Meanwhile the US military research agency DARPA had been persuaded by an >>> academic turned staffer (Jim Hendler) who had worked on similar early >>> technology (SHOE, PIQ) that they should fund research to standardize a >>> DARPA Agent Markup Language. A DAML / W3C collaboration led to the >>> RDF-oriented W3C team at MIT receiving DARPA funding to continue the work >>> area that had not engaged the XML-centric interest of W3C’s membership (ie >>> Advisory Committee). Alongside this, RDF/S had engaged the interests of >>> European researchers working around logic-based KR languages, eg f-logic, >>> description logics etc., resulting in DAML (US) and OIL (description logic >>> EU research project outcomes) collaborating via adhoc transatlantic >>> committee to produce DAML+OIL, a first draft of a more complicated language >>> that sat on top of RDF. The W3C MIT DARPA funding supported a “Semantic Web >>> Advanced Development” activity that operated in the grey around of W3C’s >>> “non member-funded activity”, and which served in particular to bring >>> DAML+OIL into W3C as new work item. This next phase of RDF work at W3C was >>> broadly in line with the RDF roadmap and expectations from the 1997 >>> Metadata Activity, but rebranded “Semantic Web” to reflect several >>> considerations. Firstly that RDF was clearly more powerful and expressive >>> than a simple metadata format might need. Secondly, by this point RDF was >>> pretty unpopular in several contexts - and seen as draining staff resources >>> and attention from W3C membership priorities (XML, Web Services, etc.). >>> Renaming from RDF allowed a fresh start. Calling it Semantic Web tied into >>> Tim-BL’s interest and writing in the area, had more “visionary” feel, >>> allowing for a message that it was a longer term investigation, therefore >>> not a competitor to XML Schema, SOAP, Xquery and so on. So now we had PICS >>> and MCF having mutated into RDF/S for graph data, and then simultaneously a >>> rebranding of the exercise as Semantic Web, with a big dose of “futuristic” >>> and “researchy”. Conferences and journals and such started to appear, >>> initially with much more focus on the “semantics” part, rather than the >>> “web”. This was the cause for the second great half-hearted renaming, which >>> grew from the growing split between those of us who were in this for >>> web-based data sharing, integration, feeds, sitemaps, rss, foaf etc and so >>> on, and those who were more “semantics first”, with a passion for finding >>> efficient subsets of Description Logic. Around the mid-2000s the earlier >>> experimental RDF query languages solidified into SPARQL, which was broadly >>> in the “data access” side of the community. This is another place that the >>> Cyc and MCF heritage showed up, since most practical RDF systems had a >>> notion of source or context attached at the triple of graph level, >>> corresponding to the notion of “layers” in MCF (and very loosely with cyc >>> contexts). So this kind of takes us to the time when we had rdf/s, owl, >>> skos, sparql … and things like dbpedia and the lod cloud were refining the >>> data-linking “hypertext rdf” work we’d started in the FOAF project, with a >>> TimBL-fueled passion for every entity being given a URI that can serve up >>> RDF when dereferenced. A good amount of public open datasets were published >>> this way, although applications and usage tended to lag. This brings us to >>> the era of rich snippets, Google acquiring Freebase, renaming it Knowledge >>> Graph and then stepping back from the role that Wikidata was more effective >>> at filling… >>> >>> >>> Ok that was a giant biased brain dump, but i think mostly true, and >>> about 25 years underdocumented history squeezed into a paragraph >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Jan >>>> >>>> Am Fr., 23. Juli 2021 um 01:57 Uhr schrieb Denny Vrandečić < >>>> [email protected]>: >>>> >>>>> Hi Thad, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for asking the questions, and thanks Tobi for the pointers. >>>>> Man, what a lengthy post it was. >>>>> >>>>> I understand that the post answered most of your questions. I think >>>>> that it is entirely possible to layer a prototype semantics over Wikidata, >>>>> just as the DL semantics have been layered over it. I don't remember if >>>>> such work has been done before. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding ISO 5964, I think I probably have looked through it at some >>>>> point, but I don't remember it anymore. SKOS has certainly been a stronger >>>>> influence, and obviously OWL. >>>>> >>>>> I hope that helps with the historical deep dive :) Lydia and I really >>>>> should write that book! >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Denny >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 3:00 PM Thad Guidry <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> *Tobi - *That blog post 3 is very helpful. It shows that Denny and >>>>>> I think alike and agree on everything. :-) His dislike for strong >>>>>> classification. >>>>>> Which is part of my basis, to allow weak relations much more. And >>>>>> use them. But how to allow them, and I think the only way is through >>>>>> properties based on the Data Model currently. >>>>>> There are many ways, and SKOS is one way to allow expressing weak >>>>>> relations and we already have some good support with existing properties >>>>>> like P4390 mapping relation type >>>>>> <https://www.wikidata.org/entity/P4390> and a host of others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Denny and I also fear the same things, like not having a flexible >>>>>> enough system to describe our complex world that doesn't always fit into >>>>>> strict rules. Which is kinda why I've always liked >>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#secassociative >>>>>> because of it's non-transitivity which allows much flexibility and as >>>>>> he and I would say... avoid "Barbara". :-) >>>>>> Which is pretty much summarized in >>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#secadvanced >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry for all the SKOS links but semantic relations helps to describe >>>>>> human knowledge. How a system represents or portrays semantic relations >>>>>> is >>>>>> where choices are made or have been made. *And I think the right >>>>>> choices were definitely made.* >>>>>> Overlaying SKOS and the Wikidata properties that sprinkle it into the >>>>>> data model is useful, but I've always been kind of reluctant to do >>>>>> that...probably for the same reasons Denny might give? Choices between >>>>>> allowing "semantic accuracy" versus "semantic flexibility". But I think >>>>>> systems like SKOS provide both. Perhaps it could be argued that OWL >>>>>> provides much less. :-) Still all KOSs provide great use when they fit >>>>>> well. How they can fit over Wikidata, as I said, is probably only >>>>>> through >>>>>> properties at this late stage of design and that's fine with me! >>>>>> >>>>>> Still, my main focus is and always will be trying to add human >>>>>> knowledge about concept relations into Wikidata to help machines, to help >>>>>> us. (the "edges" that humans quickly can deduce in seconds, but still to >>>>>> this day can sometimes take machines days or weeks to figure out). >>>>>> >>>>>> My usage and help to Abstract Wikipedia and Wikidata later on will >>>>>> primarily be around the mapping of relations ... where a lot of the >>>>>> possibilities have already been described years and years ago at the very >>>>>> bottom of this long page: >>>>>> *inter-KOS mapping relationships <-- *very last row, 3rd column >>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#seccorrespondencesISO >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Denny - * were you part of or lightly influenced by ISO 5964 >>>>>> through Germany ISO DIN or not .. that also would be good to know. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thad >>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/thadguidry/ >>>>>> https://calendly.com/thadguidry/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 3:17 PM Tobi Gritschacher < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It would be nice to have a place to look with a link to a page in >>>>>>>> the Community portal that says "History of Wikidata's design and early >>>>>>>> collected meetings, notes, design documents, recordings" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Might not answer your concrete question, but here are some (very) >>>>>>> early blog posts by Denny. They are still a nice read. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1/3 >>>>>>> https://blog.wikimedia.de/2013/02/22/restricting-the-world/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2/3 >>>>>>> https://newwwblog.wikimedia.de/2013/06/04/on-truths-and-lies/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3/3 >>>>>>> https://blog.wikimedia.de/2013/09/12/a-categorical-imperative/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, Tobi >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wikidata mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikidata mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikidata mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jan Dittrich >>>> UX Design/ Research >>>> >>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin >>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Tempelhofer+Ufer+23-24+%7C+10963+Berlin?entry=gmail&source=g> >>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0 >>>> https://wikimedia.de >>>> >>>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der >>>> Menschheit teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei! >>>> https://spenden.wikimedia.de >>>> >>>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. >>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter >>>> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für >>>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata mailing list -- [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>> >> >> >> -- >> Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 4266 >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> > -- > David McDonell Co-founder & CEO ICONICLOUD, Inc. "Illuminating the cloud" > M: 703-864-1203 EM: [email protected] URL: http://iconicloud.com > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >
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