I'm far from convinced that the Foundation should be involved in push-polling. On 31 Mar 2015 09:24, "Brian J Mingus" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I propose we run a study. We will survey random editors and ask them if > they realize that there is a chance they are leaking enough information for > their identity to be revealed. *Even if they are logged in.* > > Regarding comparisons - institutions have structure, and if there is a > structure mapping, then it's a matter of fact. A given mapping will have > strengths and weaknesses. You may prefer one mapping to another. If you > have reasons for preferring one mapping (other than that it offends you), > I'm all ears. But be aware: simply changing the vocabulary that you use to > describe the space doesn't mean that two different descriptions of > institutions aren't in fact describing a construct that is more similar > than different, or that is similar in important ways. > > This is all to say, there are often reasons that institutions like the NSA > and WMF are structured the way they are. Given the investment in the topic, > it's probably worth exploring how the institutional structures emerged. But > given the investment, confirmation bias may prevail in this case: even if > there are important similarities, nobody wants to look like a hypocrite. > > That's OK, though. Much as I am invested in Wikipedia and appreciate the > WMF, if I turn out to be a hypocrite, *I* will call myself one. Just as I > will do it to others. > > Best, > > Brian > > "*Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends.*" - > Diogenes the Cynic > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Oliver Keyes <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Or perhaps you're reading far too much into it, and in the process, > > being incredibly rude to the WMF employees reading this thread, who > > are people too, and don't particularly appreciate being compared to > > the NSA. If you're trying to have a constructive discussion, you > > should pick a better format and attitude. > > > > On 29 March 2015 at 19:02, Brian J Mingus <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > The notice just says that the IP is public. Most people have no idea > what > > > that means. > > > > > > It will absolutely make those problems harder. Perhaps it is the > > > Foundation's trusted role to hide that information from the public and > be > > > trusted with it on the backend. This institutional design sounds > similar > > to > > > another institution in certain ways.. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Dustin Muniz <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > >> People are made aware with each edit as an I am that their information > > is > > >> publicly available. What concerns me about removing IP information is > > that > > >> it'll remove our ability to fight spam, detect socks, and respond to > > >> emergency@ issues, unless I've missed something? > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent from Samsung Mobile > > >> > > >> > > >> -------- Original message -------- > > >> From: Brian J Mingus > > >> Date:03-29-2015 4:36 PM (GMT-05:00) > > >> To: David Carson > > >> Cc: English Wikipedia > > >> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers > > >> > > >> Wikipedia is set up such that if you don't take the measures mentioned > > in > > >> the OP, you are dox'ing yourself. Users are not aware of this. > > >> > > >> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 4:33 PM, David Carson <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > "Wikipedia:Free speech" ( > > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_speech) is probably > > worth a > > >> > read. > > >> > > > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_speech > > >> > > > >> > It's not directly about privacy but I think it clearly covers the > > ground > > >> > that Wikipedia is a project to create an online encyclopedia, not an > > >> > experiment in radical free speech. The system is set up to > facilitate > > >> that > > >> > goal. > > >> > > > >> > If you think that recording IP addresses is invasive, then you > should > > >> > probably be publishing your content on your own website, not > > Wikipedia. > > >> > > > >> > Cheers, > > >> > David... > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:10 AM, Brian J Mingus < > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> In general people do not read privacy policies, nor do they > > understand > > >> >> what > > >> >> IP addresses are or what you can do with them. > > >> >> > > >> >> But if you recall, I simply stated that recording IP addresses is > > >> >> invasive. > > >> >> And it is. > > >> >> > > >> >> This is especially true when you know that your recordings are > > >> faciliating > > >> >> the active de-anonymization of people who are editing Wikipedia. > Not > > >> just > > >> >> de-anonymization, but often public shaming. > > >> >> > > >> >> For WMF, the principle of neutrality clearly trumps the principles > of > > >> >> privacy and free speech. For the NSA, substitute security for > > >> neutrality. > > >> >> It's hypocritical. > > >> >> > > >> >> Luckily, it's easy to fix. Just stuff the ip fields with random > > numbers > > >> >> and > > >> >> deal with the fallout. Stop tracking people. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Oliver Keyes < > [email protected]> > > >> >> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> > In order: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > 1. Yes, the WMF is suing the NSA. There are a few threads/blog > > posts > > >> >> > about this people here can point you to. > > >> >> > 2. Brian: The NSA needs to store data without the permission or > > >> >> > consent of the people generating it, sometimes through forcible > > >> >> > interception, decryption and the introduction and maintenance of > > >> >> > software exploits that allow them to do this but also allow any > > other > > >> >> > reasonably technical nation or non-nation actor who is paying > > >> >> > attention to exploit the same vulnerability, keeping this data > for > > an > > >> >> > indefinite period, with very little legal or political oversight, > > in > > >> >> > order to stop terrorism, where very little evidence exists that > > this > > >> >> > has helped in any way. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > The WMF needs to store data for a 90 day period, which is > > explicitly > > >> >> > set down in a privacy policy that is transparent, human-readable, > > >> >> > linked from every edit interface, written with the involvement of > > the > > >> >> > people whose data is being stored, administered by a committee of > > >> >> > people who come from this population of editors, and explicitly > > sets > > >> >> > out what the data may or may not be used for, even within the > > >> >> > Wikimedia Foundation, in order to stop vandalism, where multiple > > >> >> > scientific studies have validated the hypothesis that being able > to > > >> >> > make rangeblocks and prohibit sockpuppetry is beneficial to the > > >> >> > community we are all a part of and the wider population of > readers. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > That's what's actually going on, here. If you thing these > > situations > > >> >> > are roughly analogous, that's your prerogative. If you think the > > >> >> > storage of this data is unnecessary, I recommend you go to your > > local > > >> >> > project and explain to them that being able to checkuser > potential > > >> >> > sockpuppets or hard-block users is not needed: gaining consensus > > there > > >> >> > would be a good starting point to changing this. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > On 29 March 2015 at 11:57, James Farrar <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >> >> > > Wikipedia is suing the NSA? Seriously? > > >> >> > > On 28 Mar 2015 11:23, "Brian J Mingus" < > > [email protected]> > > >> >> > wrote: > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >> It has worked up to now, but I'm thinking that, especially > given > > >> >> > Wikimedia > > >> >> > >> is suing the NSA, it is no longer justifiable. If the NSA > can't > > >> track > > >> >> > >> citizens, Wikimedia shouldn't be tracking them either. Seems > > simple > > >> >> :) > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Francesco Ariis < > > [email protected]> > > >> >> > wrote: > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus > > wrote: > > >> >> > >> > > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't > > >> >> private. > > >> >> > Why > > >> >> > >> > log > > >> >> > >> > > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive. > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> > I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) > while > > >> >> still > > >> >> > >> > allowing non registered users editing rights > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> >> > >> > WikiEN-l mailing list > > >> >> > >> > [email protected] > > >> >> > >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > >> >> > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > > >> >> > >> [email protected] > > >> >> > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > >> >> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >> >> > > WikiEN-l mailing list > > >> >> > > [email protected] > > >> >> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > >> >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > -- > > >> >> > Oliver Keyes > > >> >> > Research Analyst > > >> >> > Wikimedia Foundation > > >> >> > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> WikiEN-l mailing list > > >> >> [email protected] > > >> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > WikiEN-l mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > > > > > > -- > > Oliver Keyes > > Research Analyst > > Wikimedia Foundation > > > > _______________________________________________ > > WikiEN-l mailing list > > [email protected] > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > _______________________________________________ > WikiEN-l mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list [email protected] To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
