Hoi,
Do appreciate that when you "show others the door", you stop conversation.
Using such terminology in a confrontation like this can only backfire.
Truly, I love Wikidata to bits however its RfC process is as broken as
most. People pontificate, do not listen and, the arguments are
intentionally academic both in being often irrelevant and often full of
"terminology" that escapes understanding. I have to use this process
because there is no alternative... I HATE IT.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 10 July 2014 19:41, Pete Forsyth <[email protected]> wrote:
> In order to anticipate and meet the needs of readers, you have to have a
> theory of what those needs are, and what will meet them. The RfC process is
> one way of getting toward such a theory, and the kind of work done by the
> WMF's Multimedia Team over the last year or so is another.
>
> The pros and cons of RFC-based consensus have been pretty well covered by
> others in this thread, and I won't go through them all again -- but I do
> want to strongly endorse the point Todd Allen made, that many regular
> volunteers DO care about the experience of readers, and many of us DO have
> important insights into how readers, new contributors, etc. experience the
> site, and what would work for them.
>
> The Multimedia Team's approach, on the other hand, seems at this point to
> be all "con," no "pro." Many people in the discussions on ENWP, Commons,
> and MediaWiki have elaborated on the many problems in the methodology.
> English Wikipedian Nyttend's comment, while phrased a bit more harshly than
> I would choose, summarizes the points fairly well:
>
> "Here at Wikipedia, we have a term for [aspects of the Multimedia Team's
> gathering of statistics]: votestacking
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votestacking>, which is a
> form of inappropriate
> canvassing <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CANVASS>. Discussions
> affected by canvassing are not considered to result in consensus, and those
> engaged in votestacking are shown the door
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLOCK>: we do not accept their
> ideas."
> -Nyttend
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Media_Viewer/June_2014_RfC&diff=614906589&oldid=614904248
>
> So -- if we are to eschew the RfC process, what better process is
> available? How are we going to develop a clear shared understanding of the
> needs of readers, and the best methods to meet those needs?
>
> -Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Brion Vibber <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Keep in mind also that power users like you have access to power tools:
> > preferences, user scripts, gadgets, and API client applications exist
> > EXACTLY so that you guys can completely customize the entire user
> > experience for your specialized workflows.
> >
> > -- brion
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Pierre-Selim <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Well thank you Brion, at least that may explains why things are imposed
> > to
> > > the editors community and that also explains the high rejection rate
> from
> > > the editors community of the new big features such as VE. For once take
> > > time, think about editors workflow.
> > >
> > > For exemple on french wikipedia we used to have a direct link to
> > Wikimedia
> > > Commons (we technically removed the description page proxy), now we
> have
> > > totally lost this feature. So yes you may think it's not important, but
> > as
> > > an administrator on Wikimedia Commons it screws my workflow when I see
> an
> > > obvious copyvio on the French Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > So yes you make software for your users, but I think you're
> > underestimating
> > > part of your users that you should not.
> > >
> > >
> > > 2014-07-10 18:36 GMT+02:00 Isarra Yos <[email protected]>:
> > >
> > > > On 10/07/14 15:53, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Perhaps it's time to stop calling self-selected surveys of a tiny
> > subset
> > > >> of
> > > >> our user base "community consensus".
> > > >>
> > > >> The vast majority of our user base never logs in, never edits, and
> > never
> > > >> even hears about these RfC pages. Those are the people we're making
> an
> > > >> encyclopedia for.
> > > >>
> > > >> -- brion
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > And those who do log in, edit, and comment on RfCs generally do so
> with
> > > > the understanding, on some level, that everything they do, that the
> > > entire
> > > > encyclopedia, is for the readers, because without an audience there
> > would
> > > > be nothing. They know their audience, they interact directly with
> this
> > > > audience on the talkpages and in email, and indeed they often use the
> > > site
> > > > exactly as this audience would, simply taking things a step further
> to
> > > edit
> > > > as well.
> > > >
> > > > So when they speak for the users who never log in, never edit, and
> > never
> > > > comment, do not discount them. No more than you discount yourself
> when
> > > you
> > > > try to speak for the users who never log in, never edit, and never
> > > comment.
> > > >
> > > > -I
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Pierre-Selim
> > > _______________________________________________
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