Richard, I appreciate your view and understand your concerns. But even if all of your worries are true, which I'm not sure is the case, the alternative of not doing anything or putting it off seems worse. A group of people taking a run at sorting this out seems like a good first approach.
And an alternative approach of having all of this work be done by a formal group of representatives of chapters/thematic organizations with the assistance a WMF staff like the Fiance Fellows doesn't really seem to answer the concerns that you raise. And in fact puts more of a burden on the groups. Sydney Sydney Poore User:FloNight Wikipedian in Residence at Cochrane Collaboration On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Richard Symonds < [email protected]> wrote: > Thanks for the replies. They've calmed my fears a fair bit, but I'm still a > little concerned - even simple questions like* "of your administrative > costs, **how much were your travel costs"* don't really make a lot of sense > to us, because some of our travel costs aren't administrative - and we > don't track "administrative expenditure" because that term isn't a > definition we use, and it's not clearly defined. > > This is why we've been having trouble with understanding some > Grantmaking/FDC reports in the past - our method of reporting our financial > information differs from the way that teams at the WMF would like it to be > presented, because our key definitions differ (not to criticise the > grantmaking team, who are very helpful in this regard!) > > I think that this project is trying to fix these problems, and it's a > commendable effort - but: > > 1. Your team can't create entirely new definitions for organisations to > report to (because we simply can't afford to increase our finance team > to > report to another definition - we already report to three different > definitions). There is very little appetite in the movement for bigger > or > more professional finance teams and any big changes to reporting > requirements simply won't be possible without more resources going that > way. > 2. Your team may not be able to get all the information they need from > participants because participants are simply too busy - in which case, > the > results of the report will go ahead and be used by the movement even > though > it may not be accurate or indeed fit for purpose. If the FDC process > then > goes ahead and uses the report outcomes to ask for financial > information, > then it means that the inaccurate report will have a direct effect on > the > metrics we're marked against, and thus a direct effect on movement > funding. > 3. As WMUK, I fear that the less effort we put into involving ourselves > in the process, the greater the chance that the final outcome will be a > poor one for us. This in turn means that this actually has to be > something > that WMUK put a fair amount of effort into influencing, to ensure that > our > views are listened to and that the final report is something we can > actually report against! I worry about how smaller chapters, like Ghana, > Ukraine or Hungary - or the fledgling user groups - will manage, if the > final definitions don't reflect their views at all. > 4. You say that if an organisation can't give your team the information > they want, a phrase will appear in the final report along the lines of > "there are concerns about the quality of the data provided by Wikimedia > UK"... which won't be true, and will be read into by the community as > "WMUK > has been audited and found wanting"! > 5. The report is intended to make data* "consistent, meaningful and > comparable among the chapters, thematic organizations, and the > Foundation" *- > a laudable goal and one I fully support - but it appears that the > Foundation aren't being consulted by the Finance Fellows at all. Where > will > their views and date be taken into account - will they be using the same > process as everyone else, or a different process? I am not a cynic and I > don't think that the WMF will use this process to dictate what reporting > requirements should be, but I do worry that unless the WMF go through > the > same process, the end result will be relatively easy for the WMF teams > to > accomplish and rather harder for the rest of us! This increases our > back-office costs and makes thorgs appear less efficient when that won't > necessarily be the case. > > I trust the team - they are a group of keen, young, idealistic people - and > I know that this is going to be done in good faith, but I don't see how it > can be done fairly without a lot of work from the organisations involved - > if they don't get involved, their views won't be reflected. > > In order for this to be successful, his has to be a* team effort*, from all > the financial and project teams (and individuals!) across the world, and at > present it isn't - and given that this is the first the rest of the > movement has heard of the report, it will be very difficult for the rest of > us to help at such short notice. > > I really, really appreciate what you're doing - but I want to be part of > this endeavour, and I hope you see my worries! > > Richard Symonds > Wikimedia UK > 0207 065 0992 > > Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and > Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered > Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. > United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia > movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who > operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). > > *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control > over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* > > On 31 October 2014 20:46, Michael Guss <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hello Liam and Richard, > > > > Let me try to answer some of your questions. > > > > *Do you have an idea of how much work will be required by movement orgs > for > > this?* > > > > *Very little actually: it is a matter of simply answering an email > asking, > > for instance, out of your "Administrative Costs" listed in your most > > recent report, how much were your travel costs.* *There will not be > further > > paperwork to be submitted. It is the fellows' job to make the final > report, > > not the chapters or thematic organizations. Furthermore, we are working > > with the WMF Grantmaking department as they contribute their expertise > and > > their already existing reports. Therefore, we won't be contacting the > > chapters until we've exhausted our current available resources. Again, I > > want to emphasize that we will not be asking for any additional paperwork > > to be submitted. * > > > > *I worry that your target of 20 January won't be met, as we don't have > the > > resources to help revalidate your data at that point of our year. > December > > is difficult, as the FDC figures are released then - which is when we > need > > to construct our final budget for the next year. January/February is also > > difficult , as all our staff are already pre-booked working on our > > financial year end of January 31 - which is also an FDC quarter end - so > > there's a lot of work to be done!* > > > > *We completely understand how overwhelming work can be near the end of > the > > year and the end of respective fiscal years. The date indicated is not a > > hard deadline, but rather a tentative date the fellows have set > themselves > > as a group milestone; by no means is this date a "drop-dead" item. We > fully > > appreciate the work our partner organizations conduct and we acknowledge > > the difference in abilities to respond to requests. Hopefully we are able > > to catch the chapters at the most convenient time possible over the next > > few months. Again, we will not reach out until we make certain that the > > data we intend to find is not already available. * > > > > *Has anyone contacted movement orgs already, perhaps a few months ago? * > > > > *No, movement organizations were not contacted about this project within > > the past few months.* > > > > *Will you need to talk to treasurers? If so, please let us know as far in > > advance as you can so we can book dates for meetings!* > > > > *At this time, there is no need to talk to the treasurers. If the there > is > > a time, we will contact them as far ahead as possible. * > > > > *What happens if movement orgs do not have time to check your data? Will > > you go ahead with "unvalidated" data in your report, or will you be able > to > > move your timeline to fit with ours?* > > > > *We are here to meet your schedule as best as we can. Given the six-month > > duration of the fellows time here at WMF, we hope to conclude this > project > > before the end of March 2015 and to conclude the initial phase of > > consolidating the data earlier than that. However, we are flexible. > > Ideally, we would like to validate all the data we receive, but we > > understand that this may not be the case for every item. We will indicate > > line items that have not been validated in our final report, if need be. > > That said, we appreciate if you are able to help us make the most > accurate > > final product possible. * > > > > *How much input will chapters have in the process? who will have the > "final > > say" in the comparisons - presumably the WMF? * > > > > *Chapters are strongly encouraged to offer their input throughout the > > entire process. After all, this project concerns you! Chapters are > > encouraged to reach out directly via the project's meta page > > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement-wide_Financial_Report> and the > > fellows' pages with their questions, comments, and suggestions. Once we > > have gathered as much information as possible, we will attempt to > > consolidate our findings into a single, movement-wide report. Garfield > Byrd > > will monitor and determine the viability of the final product, but any > > product rendered will be the result of the participation of our partner > > organizations. If there are concerns about the quality of the data then > it > > will be highlighted in the report. * > > > > *In response to MZMcBrIde, the user account 'WMF Finance Fellows' will > not > > be used to make any edits on any of the Wikimedia projects. * > > > > > > *Thank you,* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Liam Wyatt <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Thank you Garfield for your quick reply - and with welcome news in it. > I > > am > > > heartened to see your clarification/confirmation that this project is > > > specifically intending to re-use existing documentation and not to > > increase > > > the "red tape" or compliance-requirements of chapters. Also, as > mentioned > > > in my first email, I would like to reiterate my support for the idea > that > > > (especially smaller/newer) chapters have a dedicated contact person. > This > > > will be very helpful for many. > > > > > > On the other note I raised, could you/anyone also address whether the > > > chapters had prior-awareness of this new project's existence or planned > > > creation before this email announcement? > > > > > > On Friday, 31 October 2014, Garfield Byrd <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Liam: > > > > > > > > My apologies for the language you noted, it was not our intent to, > even > > > > inadvertently, to degrade anyone. We fully appreciate the abilities > of > > > our > > > > community and I know from my meetings with members of our community > how > > > > smart and engaged they are in a variety of issues impacting the > > Wikimedia > > > > movement. > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to clarify that these Fellows are not auditors. They will be > > > > working from data as presented by the movement entities. The project > > has > > > > been designed so that the fellows will be using existing data > provided > > by > > > > movement entities and the Fellows will only be reaching out to > movement > > > > entities with clarifying questions. So there should be no material > > > > increase in staff/volunteer time to provide information for this > > project. > > > > If this not the case, please let me know. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Garfield > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Liam Wyatt <[email protected] > > > > <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Interesting development. Probably a very good idea for transparency > > and > > > > > good use of the movement's money, and consistency of reporting to > > make > > > > > things comparable is a great goal. I especially think that for > > smaller > > > > > chapters there is lots of value in having a dedicated contact > person! > > > > > > > > > > But I find the self-description of the Fellows as "an elite group > of > > > > global > > > > > operatives"[1] a bit degrading to the rest of us... > > > > > > > > > > I presume it's taken a fair while to recruit the team and scope the > > > > project > > > > > too (I see one linkedin profile which says they've been working > > already > > > > for > > > > > two months[3]). So, I wonder - did the Chapters who have been > > allocated > > > > to > > > > > each of these new auditors[2] have any notice that this new process > > was > > > > > being created before it was announced today - so they were able to > > make > > > > any > > > > > other time-commitments without being surprised by a new layer of > > > > paperwork? > > > > > > > > > > Also, I presume that the increased amount of staff/volunteer time > > > needed > > > > to > > > > > comply with new paperwork will be offset by streamlining this with > > > other > > > > > WMF-compliance paperwork? > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Oolukoya_(WMF) > > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement-wide_Financial_Report#Who_We_Are > > > > > [3] http://www.linkedin.com/pub/seyi-olukoya/59/b09/a7 > > > > > > > > > > wittylama.com > > > > > Peace, love & metadata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > wittylama.com > > > > > Peace, love & metadata > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > [email protected] <javascript:;> > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] <javascript:;> > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Garfield Byrd > > > > Chief of Finance and Administration > > > > Wikimedia Foundation > > > > 415.839.6885 ext 6787 > > > > 415.882.0495 (fax) > > > > www.wikimediafoundation.org > > > > > > > > Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in > > > > the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! > > > > > > > > *https://donate.wikimedia.org <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>* > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > [email protected] > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:[email protected] <javascript:;> > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > wittylama.com > > > Peace, love & metadata > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael Guss > > Research Analyst > > Wikimediafoundation.org > > [email protected] > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > [email protected] > > < > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/[email protected] > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
