Agree! I also wonder if translators adapt to specific errors if they are repeated to often. I wonder if it works like priming the brain to a specific pattern.
On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Lodewijk <[email protected]> wrote: > Reading this, I get a strong impression the problem may very well be in > setting expectations for the users of this translation tool. If they expect > the automated translation to be rather good, they may get fed up more > easily than when they consider it primarily a glorified dictionary. > > Lodewijk > > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:06 PM, David Cuenca Tudela <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to compare the translated text to the > text > > that the user wants to save. > > > > If they are more than 95% the same, that means that the user didn't take > > the effort to correct the text. > > > > Cheers, > > Micru > > > > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Wojciech Pędzich <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > It does depend a lot on the engagement level of the human behind the > > > keyboard. When I deal with machine-translated text, I simply wonder > > whether > > > the someone behind the keyboard took efforts to actually read the > piece. > > > > > > Now whether this would work if limited to namespaces outside "main" - I > > do > > > not want to demonise the issue, but if the person submitting the text > for > > > machine translation does not read it, what will stop them from a quick > > > ctrl+c / ctrl+v? Just asking. > > > > > > Wojciech > > > > > > W dniu 2017-05-03 o 09:33, Yaroslav Blanter pisze: > > > > > > Creating machine translations only in the draft space (or in the user > > space > > >> in the projects which do not have draft) could help. > > >> > > >> Cheers > > >> Yaroslav > > >> > > >> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:16 PM, Pharos <[email protected] > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> I think it all depends on the level of engagement of the human > > translator. > > >>> > > >>> When the tool is used in the right way, it is a fantastic tool. > > >>> > > >>> Maybe we can find better methods to nudge people toward taking their > > time > > >>> and really doing work on their translations. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> Pharos > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal < > > >>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Content translation with Yandex is also a problem in Bengali > Wikipedia. > > >>>> Some users have grown a tendency to create machine translated > > >>>> meaningless > > >>>> articles with this extension to increase edit count and article > count. > > >>>> > > >>> This > > >>> > > >>>> has increased the workloads of admins to find and delete those > > articles. > > >>>> > > >>>> Yandex is not ready for many languages and it is better to shut it. > We > > >>>> don't need it in Bengali. > > >>>> > > >>>> Regards > > >>>> On May 3, 2017 12:17 AM, "John Erling Blad" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Actually this _is_ about turning ContentTranslation off, that is > what > > >>>>> several users in the community want. They block people using the > > >>>>> > > >>>> extension > > >>>> > > >>>>> and delete the translated articles. Use of ContentTranslation has > > >>>>> > > >>>> become > > >>> > > >>>> a > > >>>> > > >>>>> rather contentious case. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yandex as a general translation engine to be able to read some > alien > > >>>>> language is quite good, but as an engine to produce written text it > > is > > >>>>> > > >>>> not > > >>>> > > >>>>> very good at all. In fact it often creates quite horrible > Norwegian, > > >>>>> > > >>>> even > > >>> > > >>>> for closely related languages. One quite common problem is > reordering > > >>>>> > > >>>> of > > >>> > > >>>> words into meaningless constructs, an other problem is reordering > > >>>>> > > >>>> lexical > > >>> > > >>>> gender in weird ways. The English preposition "a" is often > translated > > >>>>> > > >>>> as > > >>> > > >>>> "en" in a propositional phrase, and then the gender is added to the > > >>>>> following phrase. That gives a translation of "Oppland is a county > > >>>>> > > >>>> in…" > > >>> > > >>>> into something like "Oppland er en fylket i…" This should be > > "Oppland > > >>>>> > > >>>> er > > >>> > > >>>> et fylke i…". > > >>>>> > > >>>>> (I just checked and it seems like Yandex messes up a lot less now > > than > > >>>>> previously, but it is still pretty bad.) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Apertium works because the language is closely related, Yandex does > > not > > >>>>> work because it is used between very different languages. People > try > > to > > >>>>> > > >>>> use > > >>>> > > >>>>> Yandex and gets disappointed, and falsely conclude that all > language > > >>>>> translations are equally weird. They are not, but Yandex > translations > > >>>>> > > >>>> are > > >>> > > >>>> weird. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The numerical threshold does not work. The reason is simple, the > > number > > >>>>> > > >>>> of > > >>>> > > >>>>> fixes depends on language constructs that fails, and that is simply > > >>>>> > > >>>> not a > > >>> > > >>>> constant for small text fragments. Perhaps if we could flag specific > > >>>>> language constructs that is known to give a high percentage of > > >>>>> > > >>>> failures, > > >>> > > >>>> and if the translator must check those sentences. One such language > > >>>>> construct is disappearances between the preposition and the gender > of > > >>>>> > > >>>> the > > >>> > > >>>> following term in a prepositional phrase. If they are not similar, > > then > > >>>>> > > >>>> the > > >>>> > > >>>>> sentence must be checked. It is not always wrong to write "en > jenta" > > in > > >>>>> Norwegian, but it is likely to be wrong. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> A language model could be a statistical model for the language > > itself, > > >>>>> > > >>>> not > > >>>> > > >>>>> for the translation into that language. We don't want a perfect > > >>>>> > > >>>> language > > >>> > > >>>> model, but a sufficient language model to mark weird constructs. A > > very > > >>>>> simple solution could simply be to mark tri-grams that does not > > >>>>> > > >>>> already > > >>> > > >>>> exist in the text base for the destination as possible errors. It is > > >>>>> > > >>>> not > > >>> > > >>>> necessary to do a live check, but at least do it before the page > can > > >>>>> > > >>>> be > > >>> > > >>>> saved. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Note the difference in what Yandex do and what we want to achieve; > > >>>>> > > >>>> Yandex > > >>> > > >>>> translates a text between two different languages, without any clear > > >>>>> > > >>>> reason > > >>>> > > >>>>> why. It is not to important if there are weird constructs in the > > text, > > >>>>> > > >>>> as > > >>> > > >>>> long as it is usable in "some" context. We translate a text for the > > >>>>> > > >>>> purpose > > >>>> > > >>>>> of republishing it. The text should be usable and easily readable > in > > >>>>> > > >>>> that > > >>> > > >>>> language. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 7:07 PM, Amir E. Aharoni < > > >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 2017-05-02 18:20 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <[email protected]>: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Brute force solution; turn the ContentTranslation off. Really > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> stupid > > >>> > > >>>> solution. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ... Then I guess you don't mind that I'm changing the thread name > :) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The next solution; turn the Yandex engine off. That would solve a > > >>>>>>> part of the problem. Kind of lousy solution though. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> What about adding a language model that warns when the language > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> constructs > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> gets to weird? It is like a "test" for the translation. The CT is > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> used > > >>>> > > >>>>> for > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> creating a translation, but the language model is used for > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> verifying > > >>> > > >>>> if > > >>>> > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> translation is good enough. If it does not validate against the > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> language > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> model it should simply not be published to the main name space. It > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> will > > >>>> > > >>>>> still be possible to create a draft, but then the user is > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> completely > > >>> > > >>>> aware > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> that the translation isn't good enough. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Such a language model should be available as a test for any > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> article, > > >>> > > >>>> as > > >>>> > > >>>>> it > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> can be used as a quality measure for the article. It is really a > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> quantity > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> measure for the well-spokenness of the article, but that isn't > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> quite > > >>> > > >>>> so > > >>>> > > >>>>> intuitive. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> So, I'll allow myself to guess that you are talking about one > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> particular > > >>>> > > >>>>> language, probably Norwegian. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Several technical facts: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 1. In the past there were several cases in which translators to > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> different > > >>>> > > >>>>> languages who reported common translation mistakes to me. I passed > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> them > > >>> > > >>>> on > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> to Yandex developers, with whom I communicate quite regularly. > They > > >>>>>> acknowledged receiving all of them. I am aware of at least one > such > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> common > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> mistake that was fixed; possibly there were more. If you can give > me > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> a > > >>> > > >>>> list > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> of such mistakes for Norwegian, I'll be very happy to pass them > on. > > I > > >>>>>> absolutely cannot promise that they will be fixed upstream, but > it's > > >>>>>> possible. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 2. In Norwegian, Apertium is used for translating between the two > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> varieties > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> of Norwegian itself (Bokmål and Nynorsk), and from other > > Scandinavian > > >>>>>> languages. That's probably why it works so well—they are similar > in > > >>>>>> grammar, vocabulary, and narrative style (I'll pass it on to > > Apertium > > >>>>>> developers—I'm sure they'll be happy to hear it). Unfortunately, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> machine > > >>>> > > >>>>> translation from English is not available in Apertium. Apertium > works > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> best > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> with very similar languages, and English has two characteristics, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> which > > >>> > > >>>> are > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> unfortunate when combined: it is both the most popular source for > > >>>>>> translation into almost all other languages (including Norwegian), > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> and > > >>> > > >>>> it > > >>>> > > >>>>> is not _very_ similar to any other languages (except maybe Scots). > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> Machine > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> translation from English into Norwegian is only possible with > Yandex > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> at > > >>> > > >>>> the > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> moment. More engines may be added in the future, but at the moment > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> that's > > >>>> > > >>>>> all we have. That's why disabling Yandex completely would indeed > be a > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> lousy > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> solution: A lot of people say that without machine translation > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> integration > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Content Translation is useless. Not all users think like that, but > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> many > > >>> > > >>>> do. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> 3. We can define a numerical threshold of acceptable percentage of > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> machine > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> translation post-editing. Currently it's 75%. It's a tad > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> embarrassing, > > >>> > > >>>> but > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> it's hard-coded at the moment, but it can be very easily be made > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> into a > > >>> > > >>>> variable per language. If the translator tries to publish a page in > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> which > > >>>> > > >>>>> less than that is modified, a warning will be shown. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 4. I'm not sure what do you mean by "language model". If it's any > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> kind > > >>> > > >>>> of a > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> linguistic engine, then it's definitely not within the resources > > that > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> the > > >>>> > > >>>>> Language team itself can currently dedicate. However, if somebody > who > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> knows > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Norwegian and some programming will write a script that analyzes > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> common > > >>> > > >>>> bad > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> constructs in a Wikipedia dump, this will be very useful. This > would > > >>>>>> basically be an upgraded version of suggestion #1 above. (In my > > spare > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> time > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> as a volunteer I'm doing something comparable for Hebrew, although > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> not > > >>> > > >>>> for > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> translation, but for improving how MediaWiki link trails work.) > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > >>>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > >>>>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l > > >>>>>> New messages to: [email protected] > > >>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > >>> > > >>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > >>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > >>>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l > > >>>>> New messages to: [email protected] > > >>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > >>>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > >>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > >>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l > > >>>> New messages to: [email protected] > > >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > , > > >>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > >>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > >>> wiki/Wikimedia-l > > >>> New messages to: [email protected] > > >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > >> i/Wikimedia-l > > >> New messages to: [email protected] > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > , > > >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Etiamsi omnes, ego non > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
