Anyone object to using loglan as an interlingua? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loglan
On Saturday, July 4, 2020, phoebe ayers <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Denny! I appreciate this, and your thoughtfulness as always. > > Thanks for starting an explicit discussion. I think our field (meaning, > computer science & internet projects broadly) often assumes that these > questions will just arise in context, or get solved as we go, but they > rarely do. So making ethics a focus from the start is crucial. There may > not be good "solutions"! But inviting lots of people in to talk about > scenarios etc I think will make a much stronger and innovative project in > the end. > > all best, > Phoebe > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 7:54 PM Denny Vrandečić <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Thank you Phoebe for the congratulations, and thank you for the > > considerations, and I agree with them. > > > > On wiki, Denis Barthel and Ryan Kaldari already raised a number of the > > concerns - although not all - that you are raising here. > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abstract_Wikipedia# > Kaldari's_concerns > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abstract_Wikipedia# > Revisiting_and_twisting_a_Kaldari_concern > > > > And I tried to answer some of them there. But I do agree that this is not > > sufficient, and I would love to be able to ensure that the ethical > concerns > > you raise do not get lost, and are sufficiently represented when we do > the > > project. > > > > Alas, I am also a bit at a loss about how to ensure that. Yes, for some > of > > them, we have a pretty good, albeit developing understanding of how to > > cover them, particularly around ethics and AI and about bias and ethical > > data. Also I think doing several best / worst case scenario exercises at > > relevant points is a great idea. The one thing that troubles me most, > > though, is how to ensure that in the new communities that we will foster > > the representation among contributors is indeed more representative of > the > > diversity in the world. To the best of my knowledge, we have no answers > for > > that - and I would very much want to learn about this. > > > > So, here's what I can promise - among the many topics that we need to > > discuss while we are ramping up the project, I will also start an > explicit > > discussion on how to make sure that ethical considerations are > sufficiently > > represented during the development of the project. I obviously cannot > > promise that we will successfully avoid all ethical pitfalls - but I can > > promise that I will do my best to do so. > > > > It is, in the end, ethical concerns that motivated me, and some of them > > are discussed and described here: > > > > https://wikipedia20.pubpub.org/pub/vyf7ksah/release/6 > > > > It is this motivation of allowing more people to share in more knowledge > > in more languages which drives me. > > > > I hope you'll join us on the new list and keep an eye on what we're > doing. > > Your voice would be very appreciated. > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/abstract-wikipedia > > > > Thank you! > > Denny > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:07 AM phoebe ayers <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> Congratulations to everyone, this is exciting. > >> > >> It is also very exciting that we have an almost-unprecedented > opportunity > >> to build a new project that is fully informed by both lessons from own > past > >> projects, as well as from the rapidly developing field of ethics in > >> computer science and AI. From our own past projects, we have learned > (among > >> other things) that pitfalls could include contributor recruitment; > >> continued maintenance; transparency and accessibility of the UI; unclear > >> provenance of data; that many communities want a say in how they are > >> represented online, but often don't have one; and that the biases and > >> systemic biases of the world are reflected in who contributes, what > sources > >> they use, and what areas of focus are. We have also learned that our > >> relationship with reusers, particularly around structured data that is > >> highly valued by commercial entities, is poorly defined and tenuous. > From > >> the movement to build more ethical AI systems, we've learned (among > other > >> things) that flawed model assumptions can result in unpredictable and > often > >> deeply harmful downstream outcomes; that most sources of data are not > >> transparent in their limitations or provenance; and that incorporating > the > >> concerns of people affected by systems can result in less biased data > and > >> outcomes. > >> > >> These are hard problems, and they are not problems that have obvious, > >> one-size-fits-all solutions. But we do have an obligation I think to > >> consider these issues front and center in this new project that we are > >> building. It concerns me that, at least in the high-level project > proposals > >> I've seen (I haven't been tracking this closely, and haven't read the > >> academic papers) I have not yet seen discussions of ethical data, or > how we > >> might think about identifying bias, or even how to recruit contributors > and > >> the impact on existing contributors. > >> > >> In my day job, I am the librarian for a pretty well-known computer > >> science school.[1] There, the recent movement to consider ethics in the > >> computer science curriculum, and in the systems that our computer > >> scientists build, is being discussed now at all levels of the > university -- > >> but is being led primarily by students who recognize that they have an > >> obligation, as the next generation of engineers, to help build better > >> systems for a better world. Meanwhile, as practitioners who build > systems > >> at Wikimedia, we consider ourselves part of a small group of influential > >> organizations that is "making the internet not suck" -- we believe in > >> openness, in community, and in making sure that everyone in the world > has > >> access to knowledge, in their own language; we believe in an > aspirational > >> better world. As a part of this mission, we must take questions of > ethics > >> seriously -- and we do. We have collectively spent thousands of hours > >> trying to expand our contributor base; thinking about systemic bias; > >> thinking about sources and provenance; trying to open up copyright to > make > >> knowledge accessible; working with communities on indigenous knowledge; > >> building UIs that are easier to contribute to. These are all efforts > >> related to our ethics and values. With our new projects, we can set > >> precedent. We can explore the problems that we face today on Wikipedia, > >> Wikidata, and Commons and consider not just how to avoid them but how to > >> build a better project. We can do this in a multilingual context with > >> perspectives from volunteers and staff around the world, in a way that > >> almost no other projects online -- certainly no single university or > >> research group -- can. We can, without much legacy infrastructure to > hamper > >> us, spin out worst-case and best case scenarios, ask questions about our > >> data and who might participate, think about downstream consequences. And > >> *that* is truly exciting. > >> > >> best, > >> -- Phoebe > >> > >> > >> [1] > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Computer_Science_and_ > Artificial_Intelligence_Laboratory > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:04 PM Katherine Maher <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> (A translatable version of this announcement can be found on Meta [1]) > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> It is my honor to introduce Abstract Wikipedia [1], a new project that > >>> has been unanimously approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of > >>> Trustees. Abstract Wikipedia proposes a new way to generate baseline > >>> encyclopedic content in a multilingual fashion, allowing more > contributors > >>> and more readers to share more knowledge in more languages. It is an > >>> approach that aims to make cross-lingual cooperation easier on our > >>> projects, increase the sustainability of our movement through expanding > >>> access to participation, improve the user experience for readers of all > >>> languages, and innovate in free knowledge by connecting some of the > >>> strengths of our movement to create something new. > >>> > >>> This is our first new project in over seven years. Abstract Wikipedia > >>> was submitted as a project proposal by Denny Vrandečić in May of 2020 > [2] > >>> after years of preparation and research, leading to a detailed plan and > >>> lively discussions in the Wikimedia communities. We know that the > energy > >>> and the creativity of the community often runs up against language > >>> barriers, and information that is available in one language may not > make it > >>> to other language Wikipedias. Abstract Wikipedia intends to look and > feel > >>> like a Wikipedia, but build on the powerful, language-independent > >>> conceptual models of Wikidata, with the goal of letting volunteers > create > >>> and maintain Wikipedia articles across our polyglot Wikimedia world. > >>> > >>> The project will allow volunteers to assemble the fundamentals of an > >>> article using words and entities from Wikidata. Because Wikidata uses > >>> conceptual models that are meant to be universal across languages, it > >>> should be possible to use and extend these building blocks of > knowledge to > >>> create models for articles that also have universal value. Using code, > >>> volunteers will be able to translate these abstract “articles” into > their > >>> own languages. If successful, this could eventually allow everyone to > read > >>> about any topic in Wikidata in their own language. > >>> > >>> As you can imagine, this work will require a lot of software > >>> development, and a lot of cooperation among Wikimedians. In order to > make > >>> this effort possible, Denny will join the Foundation as a staff member > in > >>> July and lead this initiative. You may know Denny as the creator of > >>> Wikidata, a long-time community member, a former staff member at > Wikimedia > >>> Deutschland, and a former Trustee at the Wikimedia Foundation[3]. We > are > >>> very excited that Denny will bring his skills and expertise to work on > this > >>> project alongside the Foundation’s product, technology, and community > >>> liaison teams. > >>> > >>> It is important to acknowledge that this is an experimental project and > >>> that every Wikipedia community has different needs. This project may > offer > >>> some communities great advantages. Other communities may engage less. > Every > >>> language Wikipedia community will be free to choose and moderate > whether or > >>> how they would use content from this project. > >>> > >>> We are excited that this new wiki-project has the possibility to > advance > >>> knowledge equity through increased access to knowledge. It also > invites us > >>> to consider and engage with critical questions about how and by whom > >>> knowledge is constructed. We look forward to working in cooperation > with > >>> the communities to think through these important questions. > >>> > >>> There is much to do as we begin designing a plan for Abstract Wikipedia > >>> in close collaboration with our communities. I encourage you to get > >>> involved by going to the project page and joining the new mailing > list[4]. > >>> We recognize that Abstract Wikipedia is ambitious, but we also > recognize > >>> its potential. We invite you all to join us on a new, unexplored path. > >>> > >>> Yours, > >>> Katherine Maher > >>> > >>> Executive Director, > >>> Wikimedia Foundation > >>> > >>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Abstract > >>> Wikipedia/June 2020 announcement > >>> [2] > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Abstract_Wikipedia > >>> [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Denny > >>> [4] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/abstract-wikipedia > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Katherine Maher (she/her) > >>> > >>> Executive Director > >>> > >>> Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately > >>> directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the Wikimedia > >>> community. For more information about Wikimedia-l: > >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> WikimediaAnnounce-l mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaannounce-l > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers > >> <at> gmail.com * > >> > > > > -- > * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers <at> > gmail.com * > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
