There is nothing stopping an organisation from paying a decent salary and using 
fair hiring practices even when not legally required to do so,  and still 
getting more bang for their bucks. In what way would that be immoral? Cheers, P


From: Gnangarra [] 
Sent: 18 April 2023 13:00
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour


 Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to Romania 
or something)


Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum wages is 
totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of our culture 
we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors regardless of where they 
live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and responsibilities of the 
role.  WMF already has many employees that are based in countries where such 
immoral employment conditions dominate. 


On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <> wrote:

I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...


On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <> wrote:

And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the team was 
under so much pressure to produce new things instead of maintenance that the 
software would practically be without a maintainer (or worse, as even 
volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can example a few.


I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is one reason why this 
situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's a few 
others off the top of my head:

*       Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to deliver 
new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they own.
*       Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams are 
afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members angry.
*       Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to 
deprecate functionality.
*       Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
*       Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature requests is 
not a roadmap).

There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And, not 
everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I definitely 
don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!


This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved, to leave 
things in limbo and hope for the best.



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