Frederick, I agree that this is a problem, particularly for subjects relating to the global South. There are millions of topics that are worth having in Wikipedia, but which may have few or no internet sources, and whose print sources may all be in non-English languages.
I would like to see us stop having back and forth about whether this is a bug or a feature and put our collective mental energy towards brainstorming creative solutions that could lead to greater inclusion of topics and narratives from the global South that may not have any web presence. In particular, Frederick, I am curious to hear any ideas you may have on solutions to this systemic problem. - Mark Williamson On Dec 13, 2014 5:32 PM, "Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا" <[email protected]> wrote: > Let's put it this way: Wikipedia sees no flaw in accepting the unquestioned > logic that > > if-you-don't-have-a-cyber-presence-or-aren't-mentioned-there-you-don't-exist-or-are-anyway-non-notable. > > This stacks the cards strongly against those from non-English backgrounds, > those from the less digitised parts of the world, and those who may be > working in non-print/non-textual media (e.g. people who have worked for the > Urdu service of the BBC, for instance, as it struck me when a page on > journalist Reba Shahid came up for deletion recently). > > I'm attempting to do two things here: > > * Question the logic of such a position, and the impact it has on large > parts of the planet. > > * Ask whether issues like 'non-notability' need to be such a big issue, > considering both the diversity of the planet, and also the fact that in the > case of the Wikipedia, space isn't a huge problem as in the printed text. > Those interested will refer to any entry they want; "non-notable" entries > would automatically get less traction. Let the 'market' of > information-seekers decide what is 'non-notable'. > > Take an example of a prominent person from the world of Konkani literature > in Goa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhavi_Sardesai who also edits the > only literary joural in that language here. Her work is all in the Konkani > language (Devanagari script) and thus not visible to those on Wikipedia who > raise questions of notability. > > This is a serious flaw if not systemic bias. > > FN > > On 13 December 2014 at 16:15, Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Hoi. > > The subject IS notable. The problem indicated is that notabiliy is > stacked > > against subjects that are not in the west. You will find that such > subjects > > are woefully underdevelloped. When you notive the people involved in this > > magazine, you have to agree that the magazine is notable. > > > > When subjects like this are well covered in Wikidata, they can be found > in > > many Wikipedias. Now this is Wikipedia-l not English Wikipedia-l and > > consequently many Wikipedias that are centred in India WILL find this > > information never mind what the English Wikipedia in its infinite wisdom > > chooses to do. > > > > Yes, Wikidata is relevant and I am not afraid to bang its drums. > > Thanks, > > GerardM > > > > On 13 December 2014 at 09:39, Andre Engels <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > Do you really need to put wikidata into EVERY discussion? I think > > > your comment is RIDICULOUS. At least I HOPE it is. I really hope that > > > when a subject's notability is discussed, it is discussed based on > > > INDEPENDENT sources, not on "oh, the guy has been putting this info > > > all over Wikimedia, then it's probably important." > > > > > > André > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:57 PM, Gerard Meijssen > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hoi, > > > > One way to raise the profile of this magazine is to make sure that it > > is > > > > well connected in Wikidata. I connected it to its founder, made it a > > > > magazine and noted when it was founded. Many more things can be > added. > > It > > > > is certainly a way to raise available information on the magazine. It > > is > > > > one way to establish information on the subject. > > > > > > > > I added some information to its founder and in this way I added > > > surrounding > > > > information. The point is very much that never mind the English > > Wikipedia > > > > information, it should not be left to the vagaries of its notability > > > > criteria. Wikidata is much more about data and interrelating data. As > > > such > > > > the Goa Today is easily notable. > > > > > > > > <grin> there is more that can be done </grin> > > > > Thanks, > > > > GerardM > > > > > > > > On 12 December 2014 at 17:31, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या > > > > *فريدريك نورونيا <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> This debate is relevant to us, because we have been discussing lit > > > fests, > > > >> the profile of writers being invited/privileged etc... Not only on > the > > > >> basis of content, but also on the basis of age, looks, etc [ > > > >> http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/mar/28/books.booksnews] > > > >> > > > >> Sometime in 2013, I started a Wikipedia page on *Goa Today*. As > > everyone > > > >> reading this knows, this is Goa's oldest monthly, started way back > in > > > the > > > >> 1960s, and has played an influential role in the literary life of > the > > > >> State. The discussions earlier today between Ben and Peter Nazareth > > only > > > >> underline this point. And this is truth both when it was owned by > > > Lambert > > > >> Mascarenhas (jointly, if not mistaken, with Printwell owner FD > Dantas, > > > the > > > >> father of our late much-respected journo colleague Norman Dantas; > and > > > >> ex-Speaker Machado) and also when owned by the Salgaocars. > > > >> > > > >> As most would know, *Goa Today *has a significant expat audience, > but > > > >> hasn't been very active with its own web presence online. The logic > > > >> probably being that if they had a website, people would prefer to > read > > > >> their magazine online and not subscribe to it. I know of a number of > > > expats > > > >> who subscribe to the monthly and read it eagerly each month. > > > >> > > > >> What happens is that its lack of online visibility today gets > > translated > > > >> (almost) into non-notability: > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Goa_Today > > > >> > > > >> See the debate above, which is telling! I've earlier disagreed with > > > >> Wikipedians and pointed out that as long as their definition of > > > notability > > > >> is based on someone's (or some institution's) web presence, in > > > English... > > > >> this is going to be an unfair world for perhaps the majority on the > > > planet! > > > >> FN > > > >> -- > > > >> P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter: @fn Facebook: > fredericknoronha > > > >> Latest from Goa,1556: > > > >> http://goa1556.in/book/goa-in-sepia-tinted-postcards/ > > > >> <http://goa1556.in> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Wikipedia-l mailing list > > > >> [email protected] > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > André Engels, [email protected] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikipedia-l mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > > > > > -- > -- > P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter: @fn Facebook: fredericknoronha > Latest from Goa,1556: > http://goa1556.in/book/goa-in-sepia-tinted-postcards/ > <http://goa1556.in> > _______________________________________________ > Wikipedia-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
