Interesting... I have very little authority to stand on, but in my exposure to so-called NVC, it seems more appropriate for diplomatic negotiations than for any real-life human situation. IMO this approach boils down to getting your way without looking like a dick. Creeps me out.
That said, yes it's important to always deal generously with others. Unless you're pissed :p love, Adam On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Derk-Jan Hartman < [email protected]> wrote: > On 17 feb. 2014, at 21:45, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> wrote: > > > +1 > > > > When I read certain threads on this list, I feel like the "assume good > faith" principle is often forgotten. > > > > Because this behavior makes me not want to participate in discussions > about issues I actually care about, I wonder how many other voices, like > mine, aren't heard, and to what degree this undermines any eventual > perceived consensus? > > > > To be sure, if you don't assume good faith, your opinion still matters, > but you unnecessarily weaken both your argument and the discussion. > > +many > > Yes on this list we have some strong opinions and we aren't always > particularly careful about how we express them, but assume good faith[1] > does indeed go a long way and that should be the default mode for reading. > The default mode for writing should of course be "don't be a dick" [2]. > > We have to remember that although many people are well versed in English > here, it is often not their mother tongue, making it more difficult to > understand the subtleties of the opinions of others and/or to express > theirs, which might lead to frustration for both sides. And some people are > simply terse where others are blunt and some people have more time than > others to create replies or to wait for someones attempts to explain > something properly. > Being inclusive for this reason is usually regarded as a good thing and is > thus a natural part of assume good faith. It is why 'civility' often is so > difficult too map directly to community standards, because it is too > tightly coupled with ones own norms, values and skills to be inclusive. > > I'm personally good with almost anything that keeps a good distance from > both Linus Torvalds-style and NVC. We shouldn't be afraid to point out > errors or have hefty discussions and we need to keep it inside the lines > where people will want to participate. But this is no kindergarten either > and some of the more abrasive postings have made a positive difference. > It's difficult to strike the right balance but it's good to ask people once > in a while to pay attention to how we communicate. > > DJ > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Assume_good_faith > [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick > > PS. > > > Because this behavior makes me not want to participate in discussions > about issues I actually care about, I wonder how many other voices, like > mine, aren't heard, and to what degree this undermines any eventual > perceived consensus? > > If that's what you think of wikitech-l, I assume it is easy to guess what > you think about the talk page of Jimmy Wales, en.wp's Request for adminship > and en.wp's Administrator noticeboard ? :) > > PPS. > I'm quite sure Linus would burn NVC to the ground if he had the chance :) > For those who haven't followed it and who have a bit of time on their > hands: There was a very 'interesting' flamewar about being more > professional in communication on the Linux kernel mailinglist last July. > > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/ > If you distance yourself a bit and just read everything, you'll find that > there is some basic truth to both sides of the spectrum and it basically > once again sums up to: we often forget how potty trained we are, even more > so that there are different styles of potty around the world and whether or > not a human/animal actually needs training to go potty to begin with. That > doesn't give an answer, but it's an interesting/lively discussion every > single time :D > Slightly related fun: > https://twitter.com/wyshynski/statuses/430734034113536000 > > > >> On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:45 AM, "Derric Atzrott" < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Hoy all, > >> > >> I've been meaning to start a thread about this for a while, but just > hadn't > >> gotten around to it. Things have been rather heated the past few days, > so I > >> figured now would be as good a time as any to go about starting this > thread. > >> > >> Have any of you ever heard of Non-Violent Communication (NVC). It's a > method of > >> communicating, well really more a method of thinking, that aims to > reduce and > >> resolve conflicts between people. NVC has sometimes also been called > Empathetic > >> Communication or Needs Based Communication. The idea of NVC is to > frame the > >> discussion in terms of needs and feelings, followed up by requests. > "Nonviolent > >> Communication holds that most conflicts between individuals or groups > arise from > >> miscommunication about their human needs, due to coercive or > manipulative > >> language that aims to induce fear, guilt, shame, etc. These 'violent' > modes of > >> communication, when used during a conflict, divert the attention of the > >> participants away from clarifying their needs, their feelings, their > >> perceptions, and their requests, thus perpetuating the conflict." [0] > >> > >> The core of NVC is an NVC expression, which is made up of four > components: > >> Observations ("When I see/hear/notice..."), Feelings ("...I feel..."), > Needs > >> ("...because I need/value..."), and Requests ("Would you be willing > to...?"). > >> Observations are the facts themselves, and are not broad > generalizations. > >> Feelings are emotions, they are distinct from stories, thoughts, and > >> evaluations. Feelings are also self-owned and not attributed to others > (so one > >> doesn't feel attacked, one feels angry, likewise one doesn't feel > betrayed, one > >> feels hurt or stunned, or perhaps even outraged). Finally requests are > simply > >> that requests, but they are not demands. You have to be willing to > hear the > >> other person say no. > >> > >> To take a recent example from the mailing list: > >> "Cool, I'll just pop in. Oh, wait." (David, I want you to know I am not > picking > >> a quote from you specifically for any reason, it was just one that > stood out to > >> me as something that could have been much better expressed within the > NVC > >> framework) > >> > >> This could have been expressed as: > >> When people talk about things off-list, I feel resentful and frustrated > because > >> my needs for community, consideration, and to be heard are not being > met. Would > >> you be willing to keep the discussion on-list so that I can participate? > >> > >> NVC values honestly expressing your own needs and feeling and > empathetically > >> listening to those of others. Two things that really harm this > connection are > >> blaming others and blaming ourselves. > >> > >> I really encourage everyone on this list to do a little bit of reading > into NVC. > >> I've linked to the Wikipedia article at the bottom of this email along > with the > >> website for the Center for Non-Violent Communication. The NVC way of > thinking > >> has really made a huge difference in how I understand and express > myself to > >> people. I'm by no means perfect at it myself, but even with the > practice that I > >> have I've already seen a huge improvement in how I relate to others. I > really > >> think that it could do a lot of good here. > >> > >> Thank you, > >> Derric Atzrott > >> Computer Specialist > >> Alizee Pathology > >> > >> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication NVC on > Wikipedia > >> [1] http://www.cnvc.org/ Center for Non-Violent Communication > >> [2] https://www.cnvc.org/Training/feelings-inventory Feelings > Inventory (really > >> useful for those of us who aren't in touch with our feelings, like > myself) > >> [3] http://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory Needs Inventory (also > very > >> useful for those of us who aren't in touch with our needs, again, like > myself) > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikitech-l mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikitech-l mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
