OK thanks. Pine
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Siko Bouterse <sboute...@wikimedia.org> wrote: > I don't think that copying comments made on a mailing list over to a > proposer's page is exactly the right strategy here, Pine - there's a > difference between talking *to* and *about* people and I see that bawolff > has done a lovely job of doing some of each, using both channels. > > But if your question is really will this feedback from the mailing list > get fed back to the scoring committee: Yes, it will be, along with all > perspectives we gather from various threads and conversations all over the > place. > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Siko, are you planning to copy the relevant comments to the grant >> application pages? The Committee will likely want to read them. >> >> Pine >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Siko Bouterse <sboute...@wikimedia.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Echoing Quim's thanks to you, bawolff! And I really appreciate the >>> comments >>> you've made directly on proposals in past weeks, which does help them >>> improve. >>> >>> Good proposals take time to develop, and I expect that incubating them >>> longer in places like IdeaLab, where they can get more advice to help >>> them >>> mature, is one way to ensure they contain all info needed for assessing >>> them as a grant proposal. I'm not sure this is something we could ever do >>> well without the community. >>> >>> I'm seeing more and more proposals for technical projects in IEG each >>> round >>> (for the first time, nearly half of the open proposals are for tools). As >>> there seems to be increasing interest in using IEG to build tools, I >>> agree >>> that we'll want to start thinking about better guidelines for this type >>> of >>> proposal in particular. Will keep your suggestions in mind for this, and >>> happy to hear more as we work on improving systems each round. >>> >>> Siko >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Quim Gil <q...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >>> >>> > Brian, I just want to say Thank You for the time you took going through >>> > the proposals and writing this insightful email. CCing Siko because, >>> even >>> > if you particular comments about certain proposals are interesting, >>> they >>> > can be taken as samples, and what really matters are your meta >>> observations. >>> > >>> > >>> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Brian Wolff <bawo...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> On 10/10/14, Patrick Earley <pear...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >>> >> > *(cross-posted to wikimedia-l)* >>> >> > >>> >> > Hello all, >>> >> > >>> >> > For our second round of Individual Engagement Grant applications in >>> >> 2014, >>> >> > we have a great crop of ideas. Wikimedians have dropped by to offer >>> >> > feedback, support, or expertise to some of the proposals, but many >>> >> > proposals have not been reviewed by community members. Over half of >>> >> these >>> >> > proposals involve new tools, new uses of our databases, or have >>> other >>> >> > technical elements. Some will be hosted on Labs if approved. >>> >> > >>> >> > Members of this list may have key insights for our proposers. If >>> there >>> >> is >>> >> > an open proposal that interests you, that you have concerns about, >>> or >>> >> that >>> >> > involves an area where you have experience or expertise, please >>> drop by >>> >> the >>> >> > proposal page to share your views. This will help the proposers >>> better >>> >> > hone their strategies, and will assist the IEG Committee in >>> evaluating >>> >> some >>> >> > of these fresh new ideas to improve the Wikimedia projects. Working >>> >> with >>> >> > an IEG proposal may even inspire you to serve as a project advisor, >>> or >>> >> to >>> >> > propose one of your own for the next cycle! Comments are requested >>> >> until >>> >> > October 20th. >>> >> > >>> >> > Tools IEG proposals: >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/Semi-automatically generate Categories for some >>> small-scale & >>> >> > medium-scale Wikis >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Semi-automatically_generate_Categories_for_some_small-scale_%26_medium-scale_Wikis >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/WikiBrainTools >>> >> > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/WikiBrainTools> >>> >> > - IEG/Dedicated Programming Compiler >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Dedicated_Programming_Compiler >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/Gamified Microcontributions >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Gamified_Microcontributions> >>> >> > - IEG/Enhance Proofreading for Dutch >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Enhance_Proofreading_for_Dutch >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/Tamil OCR to recognize content from printed books >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Tamil_OCR_to_recognize_content_from_printed_books >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/Easy Micro Contributions for Wiki Source >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Easy_Micro_Contributions_for_Wiki_Source >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/Citation data acquisition framework >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Citation_data_acquisition_framework >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/Global Watchlist >>> >> > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Global_Watchlist> >>> >> > - IEG/Automated Notability Detection >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Automated_Notability_Detection >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/Piłsudski Institute of America GLAM-Wiki Scalable Archive >>> >> Project >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Pi%C5%82sudski_Institute_of_America_GLAM-Wiki_Scalable_Archive_Project >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG/Revision scoring as a service >>> >> > >>> >> > < >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Revision_scoring_as_a_service >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > Full list: >>> >> > >>> >> > - IEG Grants/Review >>> >> > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG#ieg-reviewing> >>> >> > >>> >> > Regards, >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > <wikitec...@wikipedia.org> >>> >> > >>> >> > -- >>> >> > Patrick Earley >>> >> > Community Advocate >>> >> > Wikimedia Foundation >>> >> > pear...@wikimedia.org >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > Wikitech-l mailing list >>> >> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >>> >> >>> >> A lot of these proposals seem poorly written from the perspective of a >>> >> technical proposal. Many appear to be more like sales pitches intended >>> >> for a non-technical audience (Which I suppose kind of makes sense, the >>> >> people who get lots of wikimedians to endorse them, "win"). >>> >> >>> >> I'm generalizing here, as it seems there's a lot of variation, but >>> >> there's a lot of "what I am going to fix", not "how am I going to do >>> >> it". They mostly don't have mock-up screenshots for the one's who >>> >> propose new user facing things, there is largely no schedule of >>> >> milestones, or even concrete minimum viable product specifications. If >>> >> they were GSOC proposals, they would largely be rejected gsoc >>> >> proposals. >>> >> >>> >> For example >>> >> [[meta:Grants:IEG/Tamil_OCR_to_recognize_content_from_printed_books]] >>> >> you can't even tell that they intend to create a website instead of a >>> >> desktop app, unless you read the talk page. >>> >> >>> >> Second, its hard to comment on the appropriateness of scope, since >>> >> there's not really any set criteria (That I've seen). In particular >>> >> its unclear what is considered an appropriate asking amount for a >>> >> given amount of work. For example, >>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Global_Watchlist asks for >>> >> $7000, which seems excessive to essentially make a user script that >>> >> has a for loop to get the user's watchlist on various wikis. That's >>> >> the sort of thing which I would expect to take about a week. A very >>> >> experienced developer might be able to pull it off in a day provided >>> >> the interface elements were minimalist. (Although that proposal has a >>> >> small little note about being able to mute/unmute (non-flow) threads >>> >> on a per thread basis, which depending where you go with that, could >>> >> be the hardest aspect of the project). >>> >> >>> >> Similarly, people asking thousands of dollars so they can get >>> >> computers to test the user script in different OS environments seems >>> >> like an odd use of resources. No libraries available that have both >>> >> Mac and windows available (Guess there's a lot of libs that only have >>> >> windows computers). Even still, is multiple OS's really necessary to >>> >> do browser testing? Almost all modern browsers are cross platform. >>> >> Even IE can be run in wine on linux afaik. >>> >> >>> >> Then there's proposals like >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Dedicated_Programming_Compiler >>> >> , >>> >> where it appears the grant requester isn't entirely familiar with the >>> >> meaning of the technical jargon that is in use in the proposal. Which >>> >> should raise instant red flags. >>> >> >>> >> Now that I've complained a lot, I should say its not all bad. >>> >> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Revision_scoring_as_a_service >>> >> for example is a fairly well written proposal. >>> >> >>> >> Hmm, not entirely sure where I was going with all this. Looking at all >>> >> the proposals takes time. Maybe there should be some sort of minimum >>> >> quality standard (e.g. Having a roadmap) to advance to the next step >>> >> of proposal selection, and only ask the larger Wikimedia community to >>> >> review those proposals that were sanity checked to have at least >>> >> enough information on them that one could reasonably evaluate the >>> >> proposal. >>> >> >>> >> --bawolff >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Wikitech-l mailing list >>> >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Quim Gil >>> > Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation >>> > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Siko Bouterse >>> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. >>> >>> sboute...@wikimedia.org >>> >>> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in >>> the >>> sum of all knowledge. * >>> *Donate <https://donate.wikimedia.org> or click the "edit" button today, >>> and help us make it a reality!* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikitech-l mailing list >>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >>> >> >> > > > -- > Siko Bouterse > Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. > > sboute...@wikimedia.org > > *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the > sum of all knowledge. * > *Donate <https://donate.wikimedia.org> or click the "edit" button today, > and help us make it a reality!* > _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
