[Winona Online Democracy]
Dwayne and all, Since the Administration, has decided to stop this young Lady from wearing her pin, as far as I'm concerned there should be no Button, T Shirts or other items other than a Strict no nonsense Dress Code, In other words A required Uniform with no extraneous trappings. Sieg Heil the almighty Fuehrer or in other words are we gaining a Madeline O'hair society
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Winona] Students' freedom of speech
[Winona Online Democracy]
Wow, what a great discussion on Winona Online Democracy about the "hot button issue" at the High School.
This is definately not a simple issue.
If people are not comfortable with complexity or democracy, this topic is not for you.
Here are some of my perspectives:
---
1. The High School Administration has done an incredible job with this
very sticky issue. I am not an administrative toady but I honestly believe
the administration is doing the best that can be expected of anyone when
dealing with this no-win situation. They have been working very hard on
finding compromises and alternatives with Carrie.
The administration did not know about the pin until a (female) secretary
and (female) teacher complained about the pin that Carrie was wearing. The
administration was not cracking down on buttons or sending out the thought
police to monitor what that students were wearing. It was brought to their
attention by staff who felt offended by the pin.
---
2. The Supreme Court has said that high school students have freedom of
speech rights. The Supreme Court has also said high school students do not
have freedom of speech and privacy rights in some cases. School Boards,
administrators, teachers, and the students themselves are caught in the
middle.
It's important for the School Board and Superintendent to communicate with
and give clear directions to the High School administration. I was out of
town on Thursday night so I missed the School Board meeting. If anyone saw
the meeting, was anything said about the issue?
---
3. This is not a traditional male-female power struggle. The High School has a female principal, all female counselors, and we have a School Board that is majority female. It all makes for an even more interesting situation.
---
4. Winona Senior High School is a relatively big school. Big schools have
advantages and big schools have disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is
that the issues of stability and control usually trump freedom of speech
rights.
The size of a system affects how much democracy and freedoms that are allowed within the system. Some ancient Greek city states believed that democracy was directly related to the size of the city state. Beyond a certain size, democracy and freedom began to wither away.
This is probably too big of a question for an already very complex issue
but are our schools set up to optimize efficiency and lower costs or are
they set up to maximize freedom of expression and individual learning? The
ol' management vs. education push and pull forces at work.
---
5. Carrie has many powerful and very valid points on her side. This is how social change has almost always happened throughout history. Someone has to be the brave trailblazer that pushes the herd to see injustices and prejudices that were always there but that most people were not willing to talk about, let alone address.
Should people have waited until no one was offended by the ideas of ending slavery, women voting, interracial marriages, etc. before they tried to improve the status quo?
The domestic and international violence directed toward women will not end until the silence and shame ends. Women and men need to speak up and have the courage to call a spade a spade.
---
6. On the other hand, the High School administration has many valid points
as well. I'm not usually a fence sitter but this is a tough one.
If Carrie can wear that button, can the students who want to wear their white supremist and neo-nazi shirts be allowed to wear them?
Will the community and courts allow a distinction to be made between different kinds of buttons and statements? It gets real complex then.
I think Carrie being able to wear the button in public is an obvious no brainer. I strongly support her right to wear it in public, outside of school.
But, unfortunately, high school is not the general public. A high school
is not a college campus. A high school is an interesting social construct.
We have about 1,400 diverse young adults ranging in ages from 14-18 in one
very tight space. Talk about a hormonal crock pot that we have
artificially created.
The students are all wonderful just the way they are but they are all at very different places in their social maturity development and critically thinking abilities.
This button issue could be a wonderful "teachable moment" when it comes to
women's rights, freedom of speech, and high school student's rights and
responsitibilities in general. Should Carrie's freedom of speech rights be
curtailed because some immature teenage boys will snicker? Do students
have to leave their freedom of speech rights at the high school front door?
At the same time, it could be a situation that causes all kinds of goofy
and aggresive responses and "distracts" students from their normal lessons.
The button is NOT sleezy or pornograhic. Matter of fact, it's the exact
opposite of those things. But the vast majority of students and staff are
not familiar with the Vagina Monologues or the deeper issues the show is
about and they will take the button the wrong way.
Yes, I can see a group of boys making their own buttons that say, "I love
my penis" becaue they are not familiar with the sexism, shame, and violence
directed toward women in our society.
There is how we think the world should be and then there is reality. The High School administration is caught between a rock and a hard place.
---
It's a tough issue.
Carrie is trying her best to be respectful and true to her beliefs.
The High School administration is trying their best to both protect freedom
of speech rights but also allow for a safe and quiet learning environment
that is free for disruptions and offensive situations. (If people only
knew what the administration has to deal with on some days!)
Democracy is a messy thing.
Instead of this debate being a bad or terrible thing, isn't this precisely what democracy is all about? Rights, responsibilities, order, control, safety, freedom, etc.?
Should we run away or try to hide from the issue because it makes some of us uncomfortable or should we welcome it as a chance to address some very important, but compex issues in our democracy?
Dwayne Voegeli
April 23, 2005
--------
From: "Phil Carlson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [Winona] Students' freedom of speech Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:19:34 -0500
[Winona Online Democracy]
I believe our schools should be models for the larger society for which we are preparing students. In that context, what is the standard for speech, dress, behavior, etc? These are complex questions, but we need to answer them - our children are watching. How popular does an idea have to be for it to be acceptable? How unpopular, or how many people does it have to offend, to be unacceptable? Or is comfort the standard by which we judge ideas?
There was a time and a place in this country where students and their parents were "uncomfortable" seeing black students in the hallways with white students, and with them socializing and dating.
My personal opinion (I'm not on the faculty or any committee who has to deal
with this) is that students should be able to express their views as long as
their behavior does not hurt others in some clear way, or disrupt the basic
flow of activities in the school.
Phil Carlson, Mpls
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------------
Dwayne Voegeli
Winona County Commissioner
(507) 453-9012
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
359 Pleasant Hill Dr. Winona, MN 55987
------------
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_______________________________________________
This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy
All messages must be signed by the senders actual name.
No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list.
To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit
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Any problems or suggestions can be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page at
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