My recommendations assume a baseline level of competence. The NEC requires that all communications equipment be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations. Anybody who doesn’t know that much not only shouldn’t design these systems, but they shouldn’t install or maintain them either. Hiring a PE to review grounding plans is just the tip of the iceberg.
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:28 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE "If you know what you’re doing, design the system appropriately. If not, get help. Pretty simple.” I would counter that statement with, “You don’t know what you don’t know.” If you’ve never read the documentation for an outdoor-rated camera/AP, you probably don’t know that you need to use outdoor-rated STP ethernet cables and shielded connectors, proper grounding, etc. If you’re installing indoor-rated access points outdoors, the documentation won’t mention this since the manufacture doesn’t expect them to be used outdoors. What typically happens is probably something along the line of… Wow, the <insert manufacture> wants a lot of money for an outdoor-rated access point, budget won’t support it, so instead, I’ll get an indoor-rated AP, slap it in a NEMA enclosure, run some UTP cable to it, and call it good. You don’t know what you don’t know. Jeff From: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " on behalf of Chuck Enfield Reply-To: Chuck Enfield Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 7:00 AM To: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE You’re correct, of course, that your approach reduces your institution’s liability. That would be true of any decision faced by any employee of any institution. It begs the question why universities hire their own subject matter experts at all. Why not just have a huge staff to outsource decisions to consulting experts? Communications system design does not require a PE in most jurisdictions. One reason for that is there are codes and standards to guide decisions such as the one we’re discussing. NFPA-70 and ANSI/TIA-607-B tell us how to ground and protect outdoor communications circuits. Strict adherence to codes and standards is also effective indemnity from tortious liability. If you know what you’re doing, design the system appropriately. If not, get help. Pretty simple. Chuck From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 12:45 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU <mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE This is why you engage a company that has a staff of electrical engineers with a broad range of specializations. We are after all talking about risk management. If I have a design/standard that’s been provided by a qualified company, and there is a problem e.g. Lightning strike of AP/Camera and it kills a person on the ground near it, then the college/entity has evidence that they’ve used the proper outdoor-rateed equipment, proper outdoor-rated shielded ethernet cable/connector (or preferably fiber), and done what they could electrically to mitigate the risk by following industry best practices/electrical codes e.g. IEEE lightning protection zone requirements. On the other hand, if it’s determined that “John Doe” in wireless deployment purchased a PoE surge protection device and installed it improperly using undersized wire, attached it directly to the metal pole vs the ground bus, the install was never reviewed by an electrical engineering company, John’s not even qualified to do electrical work in the first plate, used an AP/Camera rated for indoor use-only, connected it via UTP,… blah blah blah. Of the two scenarios above, which would the college/entity prefer? If my college/entity was Ok with the second scenario, I’d make sure that decision is well documented in order to cover my ass. Jeff From: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " on behalf of Chuck Enfield Reply-To: Chuck Enfield Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:58 PM To: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE PS – if you ask a “qualified electrical engineer” a grounding question and don’t like his answer, ask a different one and you’ll get a different answer. Fish around until somebody tells you what you want to hear, then stop. It works without fail. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 4:52 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU <mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE Sound advice, but I don’t think it’s practical or necessary to do that on a case-by case basis. A system should be evaluate and approved for efficacy and safety over a specified range of conditions so that you can use it over and over. This is what we’ve done for decades in the case of OSP telephone cabling. I can’t see why every outdoor camera or AP would need to be a one-off. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 4:43 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU <mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE Sure, as long at the $88 SPD (surge protection device) actually does what is says it’s going to do , is installed correctly, and doesn’t in itself violate some other code requirement. It’s not an insurance policy If it’s not terminated to a properly sized earth ground or doesn’t comply with the IEEE Lightning protection zone requirements. The latter is especially important for 802.3at (PoE+) Applications. Thus my recommendation to always consult with a qualified electrical engineer on such matters. Jeff From: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " on behalf of Hector J Rios Reply-To: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 8:16 AM To: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE Sounds like a risky proposition. ~ $88.00 for peace of mind is not that bad of an insurance policy. -H From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:06 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU <mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE If one is following electrical codes/best practices, are these devices needed? That is, externally mounted ethernet devices such as cameras and access points as supposed to be using STP and not UTP cable (providing a solid path to ground). The camera/ap should be grounded at it’s mount point and on the PSE side (switch, injector, etc.), In the case of a switch, it should have a separate ground lug that’s tied into a ground bus-bar. I suspect If you follow the above, these additional devices may not be required. And if the above isn’t being followed, it may be a good idea to chat with an electrical engineer just to make sure your not installing a bunch of potentially deadly lightning rods. :) Jeff From: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " on behalf of Thomas Carter Reply-To: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 6:23 AM To: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu <mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu> " Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE We haven’t had any problems, but we’ve used these: http://www.l-com.com/surge-protector-outdoor-10-100-1000-base-t-cat6-poe-compatible-lightning-protector-rj45-jacks with great success. They also have a punch down version as well if you want to mess with that. We have them mounted outside with the APs and a good copper ground wire. If you haven’t looked at them, l-com.com has a wide array of antennas, cabling, etc. No connection to them, just a happy customer. Thomas From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Hector J Rios Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2015 8:24 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU <mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Outdoor PoE For those doing outdoor wireless, here are two products we have purchased that we have found very useful: <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NMU85PM/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1>Microsemi Outdoor PoE Surge Protector PD-OUT/SP11http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=17B-00A5-00001<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=17B-00A5-00001&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Surveillance+Accessories-_-17B-00A5-00001&gclid=CIOKgobGlMcCFQmNaQodJ_0C0Q&gclsrc=aw.ds>&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Surveillance+Accessories-_-17B-00A5-00001&gclid=CIOKgobGlMcCFQmNaQodJ_0C0Q&gclsrc=aw.dsMicrosemi PowerDsine 9001GO - PoE injector - 30 Watthttp://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Microsemi-PowerDsine-9001GO-PoE-injector-30-Watt/2578417.aspx?cm_cat=GoogleBase<http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Microsemi-PowerDsine-9001GO-PoE-injector-30-Watt/2578417.aspx?cm_cat=GoogleBase&cm_ite=2578417&cm_pla=NA-NA-PWD_NE&cm_ven=ShoppingFeeds&ef_id=VLgjcQAABAHVQD8U:20150806132234:s&gclid=CKyxxczGlMcCFQgtaQodCO8PhQ>&cm_ite=2578417&cm_pla=NA-NA-PWD_NE&cm_ven=ShoppingFeeds&ef_id=VLgjcQAABAHVQD8U:20150806132234:s&gclid=CKyxxczGlMcCFQgtaQodCO8PhQRegards,Hector RiosLouisiana State University********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/.********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSEConstituent Group discussion list can be found athttp://www.educause.edu/groups/. ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
