We'll have to agree to disagree then Todd. Your posts presume a number of
things, especially:

1. that DSL or cable is the operator competition. In many quarters it exists
as a complimentary and parallel implementation. One of the highest growth
sectors in unlicensed broadband is the adoption of the technology BY local
telcos, utilities, etc. These groups scale far faster than the local ISP.
They use license-exempt it for a variety of motivations perhaps I can
address in another post. They also have a much longer ROI tolerance than the
private WISP.

2. that wireless is mostly a DSL or cable speed equivalent. That is a view
warped by the prism of the past, not by the future. Vendors such as us and
others are on the threshold of offering systems that offer far higher speeds
than cable or common DSL, and they will do so over long distance and with
very high scalability in a point-to-multipoint model. This will bring the
unlicensed deployment model beyond its current confinement primarily in the
small markets and rural geographies. Innovation in unlicensed will enable
operators to achieve what licensed LMDS promised but failed. Ultimately,
wireless and fiber will emerge as the predominant elements of the IP
infrastructure, with cable and DSL being ancillary. 

3. that wireless systems are tower dependant. The market overcomes barriers
as those barriers are thrown up. That is the nature of the market as well.
Also, what counts as offensive when it comes to towers may not apply to
certain types of towers, such a shorter monopoles, camouflaged versions,
etc. Tower battles are also partly a property rights issue. And of course
all current attitudes are fluid; no community wants to be left behind. 

4. nothing in my posts eliminate the potential of lasers to play a key role.
Certainly I expect lasers, perhaps with 60GHz integration, to emerge as part
of the operator adoption of unlicensed. LASER uses simply another part of
the spectrum.

As a final note, I don't subscribe to a what I believe is a dreamy utopian
vision some community folks have, wherein much of that vision is driven by
an animosity of government or business. Many do not say that the major
growth is by local community entities such as local telcos, local utilities,
rural cellular interests, and local government themselves. These are people
that a born, raised and will by choice die in their small town. They are
solving the glaring access inequity left to them by larger commercial
interests that cannot or will not deliver broadband to their door. Do not
make the mistake that this about big monolithic business vs. the free net
community. 

And CRITICALLY, those small town folks doing all this have no interest in
their communities having a third class infrastrucutre. They deserve better
and forward thinking vendors in the free market are scrambling to meet their
specific need. You certainly do not see the Linksys' of the world
participating in economic development conferences in the hinterlands or
actively trying to serve that market. For them any sale in that market is no
more than a terrific accident. 

Patrick J. Leary
Chief Evangelist, Alvarion, Inc.
Executive Committee Member, WCA/LEA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ph: 760.494.4717
Cell: 770.331.5849
Fax: 509.479.2374




-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Boyle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 2:50 PM
To: Patrick Leary; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [BAWUG] Greetings BAWUG (A BWA advocate hopes he is
welcomed )


Patrick, thank you for this contribution, and first of all let me
emphasize I never said "nefarious"!  and you know as well as I do,
that companies within the economy who behave inefficiently, by
financial measures, disappear.  It is determinism and darwinism.
We're all prisoners, here.

Your central point seems to be, again, better technology than WiFi
exists for long outdoor links -- My point is:   whatever costs more
than $100-$200 per end-user node apparently, cannot compete in
the market against DSL and cable.  Perhaps $500.  Whatever.

The top-down model of wireless ISP, has not been competitive
against DSL or cable as far as I can see; if anything it might be a
dollar cheaper or a 100KB faster.   I don't expect Guilders' telecosm,
but I do expect 256K for less than $60/month at this stage.

The CLECs are gone and you guys are gone too. ricochet, art,
all that stuff.. gone. (I don't mean any disrespect, just telling it as
I see it.)

WiFi *can* be competitive for the last 500 feet, if anybody cared
enough to put a router in the nodes for at least 2 -3 hops.  I object
to the frequent characterization in the press, as a 100-foot solution.

I've got a WiFi AP and 4-port router on my desk that cost $50.
There is not a damn reason in the world, it could not be running
some basic 3-hop router, with two more radios, like the WET-11
plugged into the ethernet ports.   I see WiFi radios implemented
in ethernet and usb under $50.

There is not any reason Netgear or Linksys couldn't build a
little, miniature "Motorola Canopy" box with 3 radios and 3 little
patch antennas at the end of 5-foot spokes.  It wouldn't be any
uglier than the TV antennas around here.  Stick it on the roof,
aim the patches at my friends houses, let the radios negotiate
their frequency and amplitude settings for fixed, end-to-end
links, and we can aggregate nice little bunches of users for ISPs
to service with fiber, wireless or whatever.  That's a 500 foot
solution not a 100 foot solution. (I live in the suburbs, not in
high-rise areas)

Now, I don't want to be stuck with this WiFi solution for the
long term, anymore than you do. But it *would* get us down the
road 3-5 years and people will be true believers by then, they
will replace the things on the roof.

In my honest opinion it's more likely to come from laser devices
than you guys in the wireless industry.   I see the 802.16 stuff
as very much a hub-control model and everybody will fight it.

You'll run right into antenna regulations and determined,
grass roots resistance, look, I attend a lot of hearings around
here, about cellphone towers.  That game is over.  It's already
been lost.

Give us owner-operated clusters.

Todd


At 01:46 PM 12/1/2002, you wrote:
>Todd,
>Respectfully, as I noted in my first post, I am exceedingly reluctant to
>engage in marketing via this forum and it is not my intent. I therefore
will
>not try not to address specific criticisms or endorsement anyone may have
>regarding Alvarion in this forum (except to say your cost data is way off).
>My presence here is as an expert on the commercial side of this industry
and
>a hope I can share perspectives perhaps no adequately understood.
>
>I will address your comments as it relates to the industry of unlicensed
>broadband:
>
>The IEEE - the same group that brought you 802.11b (and 802.11 before that)
>- is currently putting the finishing touches on 80216a, which once ratified
>will be the first IEEE standard specific to wireless in a MAN (WMAN)
>environment for bands sub-10GHz. The IEEE teams understand the technical
>distinctions inherent in a WLAN vs. a WMAN environment. 802.16a seeks to
>address the reality of the large metropolitan systems covering hundreds of
>square miles. (You make a note about mesh, well 802.16a includes a mesh
>option.)

You are describing a capitalist model in which a telecom operator or ISP
services the user from end-to-end.   I am fundamentally opposed to the top-
down vision and advocate *at least* 10 to 20 users need to be aggregated in
groups at the edge of the Internet.   This addresses essential privacy
and democracy issues, as well as ensuring efficient market of providers
and some symmetry in the power balance between the citizen, the
content provider, and ISPs.
  http://www.gldialtone.com/BackFenceLAN.htm


>Of course ALL current professional unlicensed wireless broadband systems
are
>proprietary -- no standard existed. Instead of waiting and until we had a
>standard, industry continued to innovate its way through the problems
>inherent in using any 802.11 derivation in a WMAN application.
>
>Respectfully, YOU may not need the features companies like ours and others
>have enabled. A few thousand commercially operating WISPs however disagree
>(and the larger they get, the more likely they are to disagree!). Any
>innovation we have added is a direct result of operator input, not some
>nefarious attempt to remain proprietary. A problem rears its ugly head that
>puts a barrier in fornt of an operator, we and others innovate to overcome
>that barrier. That is the beauty of the free market in operation within the
>confines of the regulations we find ourselves.
>
>Today, it is perfectly possible to erect a single tower that can enable as
>much as 300 square miles of coverage (in some areas) that can realistically
>support hundreds of users. To do this with consumer grade Wi-Fi is
>impossible and would require many times more towers, which means more site
>leases and more backhauls. A Wi-Fi model would also add hugely to
>operational costs, require driver support, elimate quality control
>(therefore putting customer satisfaction at risk and increasing churn).
>
>The business economics extend FAR beyond any simplistic discussion of CPE
>cost, though CPE cost is a critical part of the complete equation. One must
>account for all the elements of CAPEX. One must address all the billing
>issues (by time? protocol? apllication? tiers? etc.). One must address
>customer aquisition costs. Etc. ad nauseum.

I advocate AAA or CRANE or whatever billing can be implemented at each
node, so that each node can be reimbursed for its resources costs,
efficiently,
within an owner-operated last mile.


>HOWEVER, the Wi-Fi implementation reigns supreme for the last 100 feet to
>hotspot users. Such could be transient users (such as the cliche coffee
>shop, an RV park, an airport, a truck stop, etc.) or they could be
>semi-fixed subscribers extending the last mile (such as retirement home
>tenants, boats moored in a marina, dormitory resident students, etc.).
>
>Patrick J. Leary
>Chief Evangelist, Alvarion, Inc.
>Executive Committee Member, WCA/LEA
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Ph: 760.494.4717
>Cell: 770.331.5849
>Fax: 509.479.2374
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Todd Boyle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:12 PM
>To: Patrick Leary; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [BAWUG] Greetings BAWUG (A BWA advocate hopes he is
>welcomed)
>
>
>At 04:15 PM 11/30/2002, Patrick Leary wrote:
> >Hello BAWUG,
> >My name is Patrick Leary. I am known as the Chief Evangelist for
Alvarion,
> >the major wireless broadband vendor.
>
>That was an incredibly great post, but what has Alvarion done
>to realize any P2P community-operated network cloud?



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