Amen, Matt.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DSL vs. Wireless Broadband
I'll take a wireless link over a T1 any day if for no other reason then
the wireless link will be more reliable. You're never going to suffer the
loss of a link due to a backhoe or a drunk driver hitting a pole, which
are the two most likely reasons for a T1 failure.
Personally, I believe that fixed wireless is truly better and I would
argue someone has no business working for a fixed wireless company if they
don't believe it too.
-Matt
Travis Johnson wrote:
Tom,
The original postition and question was "are you comparing your wireless
service to telco T1". After your posts, it's obvious that you are... and
I would argue that a land-based line will ALWAYS be better than wireless,
with all other factors being the same. Now, if you are able to save the
customer $xx per month by using wireless, then there is an advantage. If
you can provide other services, then there is an advantage. However,
comparing a half-duplex system to a full-duplex system and saying they
are the same is... not correct.
If you had the choice between running a full-duplex wireless system and
half-duplex, which would you do? :)
If you could purchase a land-based connection to go from point A to point
B for $500 per month, or rent roof-top space at point A and point B for
$500 per month, which would you choose? ;)
Travis
Microserv
Tom DeReggi wrote:
Travis,
I'd love to perform your test.
Send me the CD.
Understanding that I will provision the customer at 3 mbps on our first
hop router, using Trango 10mbps PtMP radio link, and that your CD test
will generate 1500mbps of data transfer.
There are three seperate issues here. 1) One user's connection able to
effect another user's connection, and 2) On one particular link, their
upload traffic effecting their download traffic, under normal opperation
within acceptable use policy, and 3) On one particular link, their
upload traffic effecting their download traffic, under a Denial of
Service situation.
With any type of broadband, if the capacity of a link is saturated, it
results in packet loss and performance loss for the individual's
connection. Its up to the end user to protect against violation of
acceptable use policy like viruses that deliver abnormal PPS, or any
queueing needed to allow fair priority of data type on the LAN side of
the link. These problems can also all be solved with a feature rich
client side router before plugging to our Broadband, regardless of the
Duplex of our link. In other words, The same performance problems will
result on a full Duplex link, if one direction gets saturated, and that
same direction traffic will result in packet loss, and all communication
generally requires some communication in each of the direction for
traffic to flow in one direction. So where the problem may be worse
with Half Duplex, the problem still exists in some capacity with Full
Duplex. I'd argue that its possible to generate enough pps on a Full
Duplex Link in one direction, that will overload the processing power of
the radio CPU, and the other direction still getting horrible
performance even with no traffic passing in that other direction even
though Full Duplex, because no CPU time is available for it. Unless each
direction has its own CPU, which is not likely. This is an issue of
whether the radio used can handle the number of PPS sent to it in high
DOS situations.
I'd also argue under this situation 4000 pps 1500 mbps, that the
customer's use of the circuit in any capacity when a DOS of that type
was happening, would be not possible, and justify immediate tech action
to resolve, regardless of whether one direction of traffic was usable.
I;ve never met a company where having one direction traffic only was
acceptable or tolerable.
You did however hit on an important clarification. A half duplex link
can not distinguish on its own wether upload or download traffic at a
given moment is priority or more important to the subscriber. When there
is a large demand for legitimate broadband, why would the data in one
direction be any more priority than the other, when capacity is reached?
Either way the customer is compromised in throughout needs one direction
or another. Doesn't it really mean that the customer needs more total
bandwidth? Is it any more important that mail was sent and not received?
Full Duplex is one way for a customer to solve that problem, and reserve
bandwdith in one direction. But does that really solve the problem?
Maybe if the circuit's intended use is for 100% VOIP a symetrical
application. But not many circuits are used for that purpose. And if I
really wanted to, I can set my bandwdith management to be seperate for
upload and download, and immulate a Full Duplex connection, over the
half duplex link. But what it really says to me is the importance that
customers have front end queuing / IP prioritization when using
bi-directional sensitive applications such as VOIP.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DSL vs. Wireless Broadband
Hi,
If someone wants to setup whatever wireless network they would like to
test and then let me know, I'll gladly send you a CD you can pop in a
laptop and connect at the CPE side. It will dish out 4,000pps and
1.5Mbps of upload traffic. Then you can go ahead and try and download
something at the same time across that same link using the same CPE
connection.
If it were a telco-T1, the download would not even notice the upload.
Wireless, being a half-duplex medium, does not compare to a full-duplex
line. Licensed and true microwave systems are a different story.
Travis
Microserv
Tom DeReggi wrote:
Travis,
We do not see that on our network.
One provider's usage rarely has an effect on the others, that can be
significantly noticed.
When bandwidth management is done at the first hop at every cell site,
this does not happen.
I'm referring to using Trango 5830s.
You are however bringing up the difference between time syncronized
circuit based apposed to Ethernet products.
With Ethernet, there is always a scale up and scale down of speed,
based on the TCP protocol when limits are reached, but this has
nothing to do with half or full duplex. The same degregation using
Ethernet applies to traffic going in the same direction.
For Ethernet to be a viable repalcement for T1, it must be of greater
capacity.
The second thing, distinguishing the difference between T1 and DSL
classe, and which Wireless compares to, is more than just Speed and
Duplex.
SLAs, Repair Time, Network support, Peak Speed, etc.
the idea is that unused bandwdith can never be gone back to regain use
of. So offering 3 mbps speed allows network usage to be delivered
sooner, so bandwidth is free for upcomming traffic, therefore making
more traffic available for that upcomming need. Higher capacity allows
more efficient use of the bandwdith. So we find that our customers
tend to recognize a perception of much better speed on our wireless
links than our T1 links, because they have fewer congestion times.
The secret is for the bandwdith management to be provided equally on a
PRIORITY basis.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DSL vs. Wireless Broadband
Matt,
This is not true. With a telco T1, if someone starts a 1.5Mbps
upload, it has no effect on the download (i.e. virus traffic, music
sharing, worms, etc.). With a wireless connection, even at 3.0Mbps, a
1.5Mbps upload will bring it almost to a stop.
Travis
Microserv
Matt Liotta wrote:
3Mbps half-duplex delivered using 50% time division is equivalent to
1.5Mbps full-duplex. The fact that many TDD radios can have dynamic
time division makes a 3Mbps half-duplex link superior IMHO.
-Matt
Travis Johnson wrote:
Tom,
Are you saying that you compare your wireless service to T1 telco
service? How are you doing full-duplex with wireless?
Travis
Microserv
Tom DeReggi wrote:
Chris,
I agree with your finding.
But its possible your focus group did not get all the fact. (Or
what was the finding?)
For example, its not only important to determine what terms the
customer best recognizes and identify with, but also what meaning
they have for those terms that they identify with.
For example, it does not surprise me a bit, that "High Speed
Internet" was the term that the consumer best identified with.
However, most people identify "High Speed Internet" as much with
DialUP service as they do with "Broadband".
And if not identified with DialUP, its then identifies with DSL or
Cable services. Why do we want to create the image of offering
commodity services, design for huge over subscription, low repair
SLAs, and best effort?
Do you consider cable and DSL as a good or bad thing, as far as
setting standards for quality?
We don't want to be identified as that. We want to be something
better.
Now if you are offering lower quality, best effort, Wifi services
to your clients, and you are striving to be a competitor to Cable
and DSL quality, sure Brand the product as DSL, and its a good
thing. And please do so, so your wireless is not identified with
what we offer, branding high quality fiber extension and T1
replacement services.
In your focus group did you get any results on their perception of
quality that they associated with Cable and DSL or the term "High
Speed Internet"?
Would you suggest branding your T1 or Fiber offerings as "High
Speed Internet", since customers best identify with that term?
Maybe we should be branding our service as "Wi-Fiber". or Maybe
"Ethernet Internet Access" (of course like end users will know
what Ethernet means.)
Its a tough call because if we called our service "Fiber" or "T1"
we'd most likely be liars based on their true definitions.
Nothing exists realting to quality for us to piggy back on.
All though "Broadband" may not be as well recognized, its doesn;t
associate us with Telcos or Cable companies necessarilly.
Broadband is truthfully defined as a general term to cover any
media type of delivery of Internet Access.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message ----- From: "chris cooper"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] DSL vs. Wireless Broadband
We conducted a few focus groups here. Most of the attendees were
in the
18-24 yr. age bracket. It was amazing how many didn't identify
with the
word broadband. The words they responded to best were 'high
speed
internet" Wireless was way down the list. Too much confusion
with
cellular.
That said, I think wireless will hold its own as a marketing term
eventually. Wireless is the sexy new darling of the world. It
will be
worth trading on the word eventually. The other part of this is
that we
are building brands as wireless providers, so it makes sense to
keep
that in the mix until the world catches up. In 95-96 I was out
trying
to sell people on the words internet, email and website. Those
words
didn't register then but they are now a permanent part of the
American
lexicon and in the American brain. The word wireless and what it
represents will eventually do the same.
chris
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:13 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DSL vs. Wireless Broadband
Agreed excellent point (wireless scares and confuses people),
except....
Why associate your service with DSL, a low grade $39 a month
service, as
advertized by Verizon?
Why not associate it with T1 or just Broadband, higher quality
services?
If you associate it with DSL, then your are also associating it
with the
same quality and price. They think you are ripping them off
charging
$150 a
month when they can get it for $39 a month down the street. When
in
accuality you are saving them 70% off their T1 line.
Let me share a case that happened just yesterday. I got a call
for DSL,
they currently had voip and data on a T1, and they were looking
for a
DSL
line to transfer the Internet Data to, to free up bandwidth on
their T1
for
their VOIP. It was a 15 minute close over the phone, since we
had the
MTU
building lit, and represented we could have their new circuit
installed
the
following day. I represented we were selling broadband, a T1
replacement. I
made the mistake of leavingthe labeling of the contract heading
as
"Wireless
Broadband Agreement". The customer saw Wireless and didn;t sign,
and
asked
to cancel order. I'm now likely going to win the client back,
after most
of
yesterday on the phone answering questions from everyone under
the sun.
The
problem was the customers computer consultant, had used Wireless
in
Texas,
and had nothing but troubles. He stated tons of Lightning related
electrical
problem that disrupted service regularly. (It was a Wifi service
he was
using, there.) The question they asked me was, why is my service
able to
compare againt T1 apposed to DSL, to justify the higher price?
They
looked
at it as a lower grade service. My solution however, was a high
end
service. It was an Engineered 30 mbps TDD 4 mile link with a
Direct path
from the building to my core fiber peering point. I even have
fiber in
the
building at $500, but don't use it, because the fiber has 4-5
hops to my
transit location compared to my wireless that is a direct shot
and
bypasses
many points of failure. I'll probably still get the business but
after
much
sales agrevation and providing a good number of references.
So its a valid point that Wireless does still scare some people.
And
Poor
quality Wireless providers ruin the rep for the good quality
WISPs. But
my
bigger point is that some customers actually think DSL is more
reliable
than
an engineered wireless link used to replace Fiber and T1s. So
branding
Wireless as DSL, does not helpthe industry, it lowers the value
of what
we
do.
I've been plaqued by this problem, as my company name is...
"RapidDSL".
It
gets me the leads, but it also starts every sales call out with
why I'm
charging more than $50 a month for my service, that I generally
get
$150-$500 a month for.
We now market our service as "Broadband" period. It has made all
the
difference. We don't lie about using wireless, its plastered all
over
our
website. But why advertise something that just confuses everyone
and
costs
everyone time to sort out.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DSL vs. Wireless Broadband
great point! :)
Scott Reed wrote:
Who says the L in DSL must be Line? Call it Digital Subsciber
Link
and
it works for the customer and uses our normal language for the
radio
connection.
Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net <http://www.nwwnet.net/>
*---------- Original Message -----------*
From: Rick Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: WISPA General List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 00:39:48 -0400
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DSL vs. Wireless Broadband
> We find we can NOT sell our service as "Wireless Broadband"
>
> As soon as we market it to customers as DSL or just plain
> "High Speed Internet", we start scoring.
>
> Too many in this area have been educated against "Open WIFI"
> being BAD...
>
> The cable we install to the radio is a "line", right ?
> It carries digital signals, right ?
> It allows our customer to become a "subscriber", right ?
>
> DSL... ;)
>
> KyWiFi LLC wrote:
>
> >I'm noticing more and more WISP's selling their wireless
> >broadband service as "DSL" or "Wireless DSL". I know
> >that 75% of the people who call our sales number have
> >a difficult time understanding what Wireless Broadband is.
> >They already know what DSL is and that is what the majority
> >of them ask for so I would be interested in hearing
everyone's
> >opinions on the pros and cons of a WISP labeling their
> >wireless broadband service as "DSL, wDSL or Wireless DSL"
> >instead of "Fixed Wireless, WiFI or Wireless Broadband".
> >
> >If the masses are more familiar with the term DSL then I
> >think we would generate more sales leads by advertising
> >our (WISPs') broadband as DSL instead of Wireless
> >Broadband. I'm sure the local telco would just love to see
> >all of us selling "DSL". Are there any legalities to
this? Does
> >wireless broadband qualify as DSL or a form of DSL in the
> >eyes of the law? Is it legal for a WISP to sell their
wireless
> >broadband service as DSL?
> >
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder
> >KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
> >http://www.KyWiFi.com <http://www.kywifi.com/>
> >http://www.KyWiFiVoice.com <http://www.kywifivoice.com/>
> >Phone: 859.274.4033
> >A Broadband Phone & Internet Provider
> >
> >==============================
> >Wireless Broadband, Local Calling and
> >UNLIMITED Long Distance only $69!
> >
> >No Taxes, No Regulatory Fees, No Hassles
> >
> >FREE Site Survey: http://www.KyWiFi.com
<http://www.kywifi.com/>
> >==============================
> >
> --
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