Marlon-
I agree with you - Subsidies aren't just hand outs so some hayseed
farmer can sit on the porch all day spittin redman at the dog. Its much
more clever and insidious than that.  Americans spend tax $$ on
Agricultural Subsidies and get to eat crap, sometimes literally, for
their investment. The subsidies really are about cheap raw materials for
industrial food processors, feedlots, additive manufacturers etc. They
get cheap grain, Americans get feed cheap food. And often there is not a
whole lot of food in the food.
Earl Butz and Richard Nixon started America down this slippery slope
long before Carter showed up.  They were the ones responsible for the
dismantling of the grain bank loans in favor of direct cash payments to
producers. 
Thanks for the insight from a farmer's perspective.

chris

Oh boy, this is gonna be GREAT!!!!  (said in my best Animal House voice)

Unlike some others here I'm gonna take this on.  Please feel free to
expand 
on my thoughts as needed.

WISPA is a political organization guys.  We work with the FCC, congress,

state and local governments.  Eventually we'll help other countries make

things better for their people too.

It's important that people here, especially the business owners,
understand 
how things REALLY work.  To get to that point we have to talk to each
other 
about what happens on OUR watch.  Otherwise all we learn is one sided
and we 
can't form reality based opinions.

Having said that, I agree with you 100% David.  As far as you've
gone......

We own thousands of acres.  Not me, my parents though.  We get a LOT of 
money for not growing wheat every year.  Believe me, it's not a good
thing 
for the community.  We buy less fuel, equipment, fertilizer, insurance
etc. 
etc. etc.  Many farm towns are all but dead because they can't support
the 
churches, grocery stores, clothing stores, hardware stores etc.
Wal-Mart 
hasn't helped, but mostly it's the lost of bodies that has hurt.  When
the 
school district is loosing kids you know people, especially the next 
generation just aren't staying here.

But what's a body to do?  Out here most of the ground we're being paid
not 
to raise crops on is really bad ground.  It should not have ever been
pulled 
from grazeland in the first place.  But there's not always been more
food 
than people, so folks planted every acre they could.

Farming used to be a good living.  Back before Jimmy Carter that is.
His 
choice to use food as a political weapon caused other countries to start

growing a LOT of food.  And our wonderful universities and government
was 
all too happy to teach them how.  So now we don't feed you AND the whole

world.  We feed you and part of the world.

Farmers today compete against Australia, south america, China and a lot
of 
other countries.  Here we have more rules that everyone, not only the 
farmers but the suppliers of our chemicals and machinery too, have to
follow 
so our costs are often driven much higher than our competitors.  But
we've 
got good ground and we know how to take care of it so we can probably
keep 
up that way.

Many of those other countries subsidize their farmers or tax our
incoming 
crops though.  Sometimes both.  In those cases we certainly can not
compete. 
If we can't compete we go out of business.  If no one in the industry
can 
compete the industry eventually shuts down.  When's the last time you
saw a 
wagon wheel plant?  Or a blacksmith shop?  It does happen.  In those
cases 
though, there's been something else, something better to take it's
place.

What are you going to do for food if you can't afford to grow it here?
You 
can live without your computers if someone blocks the ships coming to
our 
shores.  You can survive without your TV, radio, mp3 player etc.

Let me ask you, if there's another big war and you were on the other
side, 
what's the first thing you'd do?  Me, I'd shut down America's access to
the 
rest of the world.  Without America many economies would collapse, war 
materials couldn't get out, and nothing, including (especially???) food 
would get in.

Governments know that as long as people are eating it's not likely that
they 
will revolt.  When they start to starve, when the children die, bullets 
start to fly.  And NO government, even the mighty Romans, survives when
the 
people are against them.  The USA spends less per capita on food than
almost 
any country in the world.  If you allow too many farmers to go broke
that 
won't be the case.  You'll have to buy food instead of that new car.....

Here's where it gets really interesting.  Did you know that the farmers 
can't sell their crops themselves in most cases?  There are two or three

exporters in the whole country.  They sell the wheat AND set the prices
that 
the farmers are paid.  I can't go to, say, China, and say, "Look, you're

paying $5 for a bushel of wheat.  I only get $3.75, how about if I sell
to 
you at $4.50 and we both win?"  How would you like to have to sell your 
internet to EarthLink, AOL, or MSN?  At whatever rate they decided you 
should get?  That's much the way farming works.

As for other crops it's not that simple.  Believe it or not, farmers
aren't 
stupid.  They are often some of the sharpest most business savvy people 
you'll ever meet.  When crop prices are LOWER than they were in the
1970's 
and have been since then almost ever year we weeded out the stupid ones
a 
long time ago.  IF they are in the right climate they already grow
something 
else.  IF they have the right amount of water (our latest well is 2240' 
deep, $500,000 to put it in and you don't even want to know about that 
electricity bill!).  IF there is a market.  The list goes on and is very

long.  When we can, we DO grow other crops.  Right now we have garbanzo 
beans, wheat, barley, and over half a dozen different varieties of grass

seed.  Last year we had canola, peas and spuds too.  We would like to
grow 
some corn but there's no facilities to handle it within trucking
distance 
(can't truck right from the field much more than 30 minutes).

I wish that the government would change the CRP program a little bit and

make these guys grow fuel instead of sage brush.  All that's doing is 
creating an amazing rodent problem.  Nothing good lives out there cause 
there's no water.  But the rodents can get enough water from eating the 
plants I guess.  And the bugs, sheesh.

It costs around $4.00 per gallon to produce biofuels today.  I'm talking
at 
scale, not from left over cooking oil.  There's a plant going in here in

town.  There are no gas taxes on it so that helps, and there are some 
subsidies.  It still costs more than other petro though.

Nothing could be better for this country than having every community
with a 
fuel production plant in or near it.  That would put some real pressure
on 
the petrol market.

You watch though, just like electricity, as soon as some alternate
plants 
are just starting to come online, the price of crude will drop like a
rock 
and those plants will shut down.  The the price will start to creep up 
again.

If we're gonna pay people not to farm food crops, lets put that money
into 
energy independence.  It would be great for the local economies, it
would 
take funds away from our enemies, it would free us from depending on
others. 
Lots of good to it.

But, it would rock the establishment so it can never be allowed to
happen. 
Not till the establishment is in a position to be at the head of it.
Just 
like broadband.  The technology had been around for a very long time.
Till 
the telco's and cable co's were ready to handle 95% of the market
though, it 
wasn't there.

Who knows though, just like the WISPs have been a ground swell of grass 
roots people and have pushed the broadband industry to heights and in 
directions that the experts completely missed, maybe there small fuel 
startups will be able to do the same.  Another $1.00 per gallon for gas
and 
it'll be a wash for the little guy to compete against the petro
companies.

Like you, Dave, I sure wish that the government would keep it's nose out
of 
my business.  I wish ALL governments would do that.  But that's not what

governments do.  They think they see a bigger picture, they think they
are 
smarter, or they are just greedy, whatever.

As for the price of living in the country.  Yeah, we know there is one.
We 
pay more in taxes because there are fewer of us available to support the

infrastructure.  We can't get chinese food.  We can't order out for
pizza, 
can't get a new pair of $20 shoes without an $80 gas bill.  We can't
drive 
only small cars cause not all of the roads get plowed right away.  And
we 
often have to haul much more than what will fit in a small car.  Heck,
when 
we want to go to Safeway and go big shopping we have to take the
Suburban 45 
miles away and we'll fill the back of it to feed our family of 5 for 2
to 3 
weeks.  And that's with doing much of our regular shopping here in town.

Try to put two parents (yeah, we're a mom and a dad in our house), three

kids and a month's worth of food in that Yugo or mini van.  Especially
if 
you get caught in a snow storm.

We knew we'd not get cable TV.  We knew that the fire department
wouldn't 
get there till the house was already burned the the ground.  We knew
that a 
heart attack would be fatal because help is so far away.

Know what else we know?  We know our kids are LESS likely to have kids
out 
of wedlock.  We know that they are less likely to get hooked on drugs.
We 
know that there are no gangs out there.  We know it's safe to let our 7
year 
old daughter walk downtown for a candy bar.  Alone.  We know we can (and
do) 
leave the keys in the car.  Heck, I leave my wallet in my car, unlocked.
We 
don't lock our house, don't have to.  We know that the chances of our
kids 
being murdered or assaulted is much lower than in the city.  Out here, 
sexual predators usually last weeks in the community.  They don't stick 
around.

Know what else is true about my little town?  We have MORE broadband
options 
than most of you in the city have.  Usually at lower prices and higher 
speeds too.

I don't want government money to build out my network.  I've seen what 
happens when they get their hooks into you and/or your business.  We
could 
have had food stamps, free government health care etc.  All of that
would 
sure have made life easier and our business could have grown faster with

less debt.  What we've done we've not down on YOUR dime.  But my
competitors 
get YOUR money.  Should they be the only ones that do?  I'd like nothing

better than to see their funds shut off.  That's not gonna happen
though, 
the closest I can do to level the playing field and stay in business is
to 
get some of the money too.

When you've got your house, retirement, college money, everything on the

line, what are you gonna do?????

I hope that helps explain more about what really effects decisions that
get 
made here on the farm.

Oh yeah, I spent a decade in the big city with a real job.  You can stay

there with the crime, the filth, the disease and the threat of
terrorism. 
It'll take one hell of a big carrot before I'm gonna go back to that
kinda 
stress.  grin

Marlon
(509) 982-2181                                   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting services
42846865 (icq)                                    And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Fwd: Durbin introduces 
billtoencouragehighspeedinternetaccess in rural areas]


> Your assumption is correct.  Using your example of wheat, if you let
free
> markets operate, then farmers who couldn't survive growing wheat would

> stop
> growing wheat and switch to a crop that would make them more money.  I
> believe that all government subsidies should be eliminated and that we
> should pay market prices for goods and services.  Government subsidies
are
> nothing more than price manipulation and welfare for businesses.  They

> cost
> taxpayers more money than it would if we just paid the market price
for
> products and services, because there is the added cost of government
> oversight and dispursement of funds.
>
> Dave
>
> 989-837-3790 x 151
> 989-837-3780 fax
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.mercury.net
>
> 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Cliff Leboeuf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Fwd: Durbin introduces
> billtoencouragehighspeedinternet access in rural areas]
>
>
>> So David,
>>
>> I guess it is fair for me to assume that you don't agree the the
> government
>> paying some NOT to grow wheat or NOT to raise pigs so that those that
DO
> can
>> survive on a reasonable profit margin and not be flooded by over
> production
>> creating too much product for not enough demand...?
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>> On 8/9/06 8:57 AM, "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>>
>> > Since when do the people on this list support taxation, waste, and
>> > government subsidies?  Why should the burden of providing
high-speed
>> > Internet to people in underserved (typically rural) areas fall on
the
>> > shoulders of taxpayers?  I don't want my taxes to pay to expand
your
> network
>> > or for Joe User to get your service.
>> >
>> > If people want services, they should live in a city.  If they want
to
> live
>> > in rural areas, they should do so with the understanding that
services
>> > (water, sewer, EMS, schools, cable, high-speed Internet, just about
> anything
>> > and everything) are harder to come by and sometimes more expensive.
No
> one
>> > makes people live in the country.  People choose to on their own,
and
> they
>> > should take responsibility for the costs and/or lack of services
> associated
>> > with that decision.
>> >
>> > Just my own 2 cents.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> > 989-837-3790 x 151
>> > 989-837-3780 fax
>> >
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > www.mercury.net
>> >
>> > 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Chadd Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 8:36 PM
>> > Subject: RE: [WISPA] [Fwd: Durbin introduces bill
>> > toencouragehighspeedinternet access in rural areas]
>> >
>> >
>> >> IMO they need to start giving money to the end users to pay for
hookup
> and
>> >> installation. Stop paying to expand WISP's networks and give the
money
>> > where
>> >> it is needed, if you want a bigger network pay for it out of your
own
>> >> pocket. In IL I doubt you could drive from Chicago to St.Louis and
not
> be
>> >> able to hook up to a WISP.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Give money to the people who need to put up a 45ft tower to get 
>> >> access.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Chadd
>> >>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 5:54 PM
>> >>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> >>> Subject: RE: [WISPA] [Fwd: Durbin introduces bill to
>> >>> encouragehighspeedinternet access in rural areas]
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Don't forget the 3rd great lie..."I'm from the government and I'm
>> >>> here to help
>> >>> you"
>> >>>
>> >>> :-)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Jeff Broadwick
>> >>> ImageStream
>> >>> 800-813-5123 x106
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/411 - Release Date:
> 8/7/2006
>> >>
>> >> -- 
>> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >>
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>> >>
>>
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